Topic by dtoub

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Topic: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

Prior to purchasing P8 last year (and upgrading to P9 yesterday), I had been using the Radical Piano rack extension in my Reason DAW. Honestly, it was pretty good, although now I prefer Pianoteq as it is much more realistic and I can use a Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steinway D, etc. However, the "mechanical sounds" in the Radical Piano setup seemed much more realistic to my ears than the corresponding Key Release and Pedal noises in Pianoteq. My compositions tend to be very quiet and sometimes, in Reason, I had to decrease those mechanical sounds since I found them too distracting. But I didn't tend to eliminate them. With Pianoteq, I've tweaked a standard preset to have little or no mechanical sounds (Key Release, Pedal) since it didn't sound like anything I'd ever heard when playing or listening to a real piano.

No big deal, but curious why Pianoteq ended up with those sounds rather than something a bit more realistic. Again, the rack extension I use with Reason (when I'm not running Pianoteq in it as a VST) has mechanical sounds that seem more piano-like and was surprised that for my own fairly quiet works, I had to turn those down significantly in Pianoteq. Thanks!

Reply by Bellyman

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

As a piano tech for many years, I can assure you that real pianos make real noises... clunks, thumps, clatters, whoomps, zings, way more than most people realize. And all of them will be a little different from all the rest of them, even among ones that share the same name on the fallboard. That's just reality in real life.

So, whatever pianos Pianoteq was trying to imitate, those odd sounds as mentioned above were also a part of the imitation. They add a touch of realism. As you know, they are highly adjustable / tweakable.

It's kind of an extension of the thought that goes into the "Condition" slider. When things are "too perfect" they tend to seem less real, less realistic, sterile. Though perfection is typically the goal with high end grand pianos, it is never attained.

Sorry, not really a direct answer to your question, just rambling a bit. Glad you're able to get things right where you like 'em.

Reply by dtoub

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

Bellyman wrote:

As a piano tech for many years, I can assure you that real pianos make real noises... clunks, thumps, clatters, whoomps, zings, way more than most people realize. And all of them will be a little different from all the rest of them, even among ones that share the same name on the fallboard. That's just reality in real life.

So, whatever pianos Pianoteq was trying to imitate, those odd sounds as mentioned above were also a part of the imitation. They add a touch of realism. As you know, they are highly adjustable / tweakable.

It's kind of an extension of the thought that goes into the "Condition" slider. When things are "too perfect" they tend to seem less real, less realistic, sterile. Though perfection is typically the goal with high end grand pianos, it is never attained.

Sorry, not really a direct answer to your question, just rambling a bit. Glad you're able to get things right where you like 'em.

Thanks. Yes I am very aware that all pianos make mechanical sounds. Which is why I would’ve liked to have included them when using Pianoteq. But for all three of the pianos I have (Bösendorfet, Steinway, Bechstein), those noises sound more like wisps of air blowing than actual mechanical note up or pedal sounds. I don’t know how else to describe it. So I was just curious if others found the pianoteq mechanical sounds in any way realistic. Looking for additional input. Thanks.

Reply by daniel_r328

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

Iirc the mechanical sounds are the only sampled element in Pianoteq, so I speculate that they sound a bit off because (a) they are produced via a separate process, so aren't integrated as cleanly as a sample recording containing them naturally would be and (b) they would have had to have been sampled in isolation which would have required at least a little bit of manipulation of an instrument's normal operation.

I prefer reigning them in a bit too, in my opinion they are a bit too loud by default. But that's preference I'd say.

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

dtoub wrote:

Prior to purchasing P8 last year (and upgrading to P9 yesterday), I had been using the Radical Piano rack extension in my Reason DAW. Honestly, it was pretty good, although now I prefer Pianoteq as it is much more realistic and I can use a Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steinway D, etc. However, the "mechanical sounds" in the Radical Piano setup seemed much more realistic to my ears than the corresponding Key Release and Pedal noises in Pianoteq. My compositions tend to be very quiet and sometimes, in Reason, I had to decrease those mechanical sounds since I found them too distracting. But I didn't tend to eliminate them. With Pianoteq, I've tweaked a standard preset to have little or no mechanical sounds (Key Release, Pedal) since it didn't sound like anything I'd ever heard when playing or listening to a real piano.

No big deal, but curious why Pianoteq ended up with those sounds rather than something a bit more realistic. Again, the rack extension I use with Reason (when I'm not running Pianoteq in it as a VST) has mechanical sounds that seem more piano-like and was surprised that for my own fairly quiet works, I had to turn those down significantly in Pianoteq. Thanks!

. It is a matter of adjusting them . One of the big advantage of the mixed sampled + modelled approach is for half pedalling , it gives you an additional audio acoustic feedback aligned with the pedal curve and the velocity , so you can be more precise. In most sampled piano , they only sample at best 25% , 50% , 75% of pedal positions otherwise the size of the library would be atrocious.

Reply by dtoub

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

Pianistically wrote:
dtoub wrote:

Prior to purchasing P8 last year (and upgrading to P9 yesterday), I had been using the Radical Piano rack extension in my Reason DAW. Honestly, it was pretty good, although now I prefer Pianoteq as it is much more realistic and I can use a Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steinway D, etc. However, the "mechanical sounds" in the Radical Piano setup seemed much more realistic to my ears than the corresponding Key Release and Pedal noises in Pianoteq. My compositions tend to be very quiet and sometimes, in Reason, I had to decrease those mechanical sounds since I found them too distracting. But I didn't tend to eliminate them. With Pianoteq, I've tweaked a standard preset to have little or no mechanical sounds (Key Release, Pedal) since it didn't sound like anything I'd ever heard when playing or listening to a real piano.

No big deal, but curious why Pianoteq ended up with those sounds rather than something a bit more realistic. Again, the rack extension I use with Reason (when I'm not running Pianoteq in it as a VST) has mechanical sounds that seem more piano-like and was surprised that for my own fairly quiet works, I had to turn those down significantly in Pianoteq. Thanks!

. It is a matter of adjusting them . One of the big advantage of the mixed sampled + modelled approach is for half pedalling , it gives you an additional audio acoustic feedback aligned with the pedal curve and the velocity , so you can be more precise. In most sampled piano , they only sample at best 25% , 50% , 75% of pedal positions otherwise the size of the library would be atrocious.

I do use half pedal in some of my works and as with Reason or any other DAW, easy to set the level. I’m specifically talking about the mechanical sounds though, and do end up making them pretty much inaudible due to their odd and unrealistic sounds (to me, being very familiar with my own piano experience and recordings where these are audible, as with many late Feldman works)

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

dtoub wrote:
Pianistically wrote:
dtoub wrote:

Prior to purchasing P8 last year (and upgrading to P9 yesterday), I had been using the Radical Piano rack extension in my Reason DAW. Honestly, it was pretty good, although now I prefer Pianoteq as it is much more realistic and I can use a Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steinway D, etc. However, the "mechanical sounds" in the Radical Piano setup seemed much more realistic to my ears than the corresponding Key Release and Pedal noises in Pianoteq. My compositions tend to be very quiet and sometimes, in Reason, I had to decrease those mechanical sounds since I found them too distracting. But I didn't tend to eliminate them. With Pianoteq, I've tweaked a standard preset to have little or no mechanical sounds (Key Release, Pedal) since it didn't sound like anything I'd ever heard when playing or listening to a real piano.

No big deal, but curious why Pianoteq ended up with those sounds rather than something a bit more realistic. Again, the rack extension I use with Reason (when I'm not running Pianoteq in it as a VST) has mechanical sounds that seem more piano-like and was surprised that for my own fairly quiet works, I had to turn those down significantly in Pianoteq. Thanks!

. It is a matter of adjusting them . One of the big advantage of the mixed sampled + modelled approach is for half pedalling , it gives you an additional audio acoustic feedback aligned with the pedal curve and the velocity , so you can be more precise. In most sampled piano , they only sample at best 25% , 50% , 75% of pedal positions otherwise the size of the library would be atrocious.

I do use half pedal in some of my works and as with Reason or any other DAW, easy to set the level. I’m specifically talking about the mechanical sounds though, and do end up making them pretty much inaudible due to their odd and unrealistic sounds (to me, being very familiar with my own piano experience and recordings where these are audible, as with many late Feldman works)

yes I know you refer to the sound . I was just mentioning the above independently of the sound it itself so that ideally you don’t to switch it off. That said my comment was valid specifically for classical music .

Reply by hebele

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Re: pedal and key release sounds-unrealistic?

I have no idea how realistic the mechanical noises are. But I find them useful for practicing. I have a continuous pedal and my DP sends note off velocities. If I slam the pedal then the pedal noise is really loud and not so pleasant. Similarly if I release the keys abruptly then hammer noise becomes more obvious. I'd like to think I would get a similar behaviour from an acoustic.

Pianoteq also have  options to manage these noises, including the pedal curve and note off curve. I don't remember seeing these options on the a few sample VSTs I've tried.