Topic: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

I finally upgraded my old Kawai MP8 to a VPC1, since it seems Kawai's never going to release a VPC2. The MP8 didn't send note-off velocities as the VPC1 does.

I found that dampers kept "sticking" while I was playing, and after looking at the MIDI data, I noticed the sticking dampers seemed to have a note-off velocity of 1. A test recording confirmed that. If the MIDI file's needed, download it at the link below. And no, I wasn't using the sostenuto pedal! Also, the stuck dampers are not unstuck by using the sustain pedal. Only replaying the notes of the stuck dampers (with a velocity > 1) will allow the dampers to fall.

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code...d62bA7WuSV

(In order to hear this issue, the first point in the note-off curve needs to start at 0,0.)

Last edited by NathanShirley (19-07-2025 06:46)

Re: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

After experimenting a bit more, I think I see why this issue exists.

1) It's too easy to register a note-off velocity of 1 on the VPC1 (hey, maybe that's what the "1" stands for...). I can't even get it to register 2 through 4 at all, and 5, 6 are tough to hit.

2) Pianoteq seems to be trying to compensate for a MIDI keyboard limitation: a simple note-off velocity is crude compared with how a piano works. On a piano, if you very slowly release a key, there's a point where the damper just barely starts to touch the strings, but doesn't fully dampen them. You can keep the dampers in this position if you hold your finger there (or your foot on the damper pedal), or you can even back the dampers off the strings again without fully damping them. None of that can be transmitted by a MIDI keyboard (any I know of). Of course you wouldn't do this in normal playing, so it's not a big issue.

3) Pianoteq seems to do a pretty good job working around this limitation. But I think, with that limitation in mind, Pianoteq is a little too extreme with these long decays for low note-off values, and 1 shouldn't act like the damper never went down (although maybe it's still damping the note a tiny bit?).

4) No matter how #3 is tuned, the sustain pedal should still reset those dampers. I'm guessing that was just overlooked.

5) For now there's an easy fix on my end. If I set the note-off curve starting point to 0,8 it all seems to respond quite naturally (for the VPC1). Anything lower than that (like 0,4) feels exaggerated.

As an aside about the VPC1, the response of the action is definitely a step up from the MP8 overall. It's action is a bit lighter, less loud and clunky feeling; the key return is a little sluggish, but not as much as the MP8; and the response at playing at the back of the keys (at the "fallboard") is better, but not great. I would still prefer a much longer key/pivot point. One area where the MP8 was superior was its wider range of key force, particularly on the upper end. On the VPC1 it's too easy to register a note-on velocity of 127, and so no matter what touch curve you use, you're always hitting that ceiling sooner than you should.

Re: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

Has no one else with a Kawai VPC1 (or another keyboard that sends low note-off velocities relatively easily) noticed this issue? I'm assuming it's not just mine... It did occur to me that most people might not ever be releasing keys so lightly, particularly after a loud note where the problem is more likely to be noticed. Or perhaps I've just described it poorly!

I do think #4 is a bug that should be fixed.

And #3 is less of an issue because the note-off curve can be adjusted, but I think Pianoteq could be less aggressive. After a lot more playing I ended up setting the beginning of the note-off velocity curve to 0,17. That seems to eliminate the issue for me.

Re: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

NathanShirley wrote:

Has no one else with a Kawai VPC1 (or another keyboard that sends low note-off velocities relatively easily) noticed this issue? I'm assuming it's not just mine... It did occur to me that most people might not ever be releasing keys so lightly, particularly after a loud note where the problem is more likely to be noticed. Or perhaps I've just described it poorly!

I do think #4 is a bug that should be fixed.

And #3 is less of an issue because the note-off curve can be adjusted, but I think Pianoteq could be less aggressive. After a lot more playing I ended up setting the beginning of the note-off velocity curve to 0,17. That seems to eliminate the issue for me.

I have noticed the issue with low note off values on several keyboards Kawai, Roland and always use only a [5-127] range for the note-off velocity values to avoid unwanted prolonged sustain issues.

Re: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

Thanks for confirming it wasn't just me!

I suppose it would be extremely difficult (and likely quite expensive) to make a keyboard that could send a continuous note-off position per key (not just a note-off velocity). But I assume optical note-off position sensors could do it. Apparently even making a continuous damper pedal with enough resolution to let Pianoteq really replicate the behavior of the dampers is too much to hope for. Of course that might also be a MIDI limitation, where MIDI 2.0 would be needed to remove the bottleneck allowing more messages to get through in a very short period of time.

Pianistically wrote:
NathanShirley wrote:

Has no one else with a Kawai VPC1 (or another keyboard that sends low note-off velocities relatively easily) noticed this issue? I'm assuming it's not just mine... It did occur to me that most people might not ever be releasing keys so lightly, particularly after a loud note where the problem is more likely to be noticed. Or perhaps I've just described it poorly!

I do think #4 is a bug that should be fixed.

And #3 is less of an issue because the note-off curve can be adjusted, but I think Pianoteq could be less aggressive. After a lot more playing I ended up setting the beginning of the note-off velocity curve to 0,17. That seems to eliminate the issue for me.

I have noticed the issue with low note off values on several keyboards Kawai, Roland and always use only a [5-127] range for the note-off velocity values to avoid unwanted prolonged sustain issues.

Re: Dampers don't drop if note-off velocity is 1

NathanShirley wrote:

Thanks for confirming it wasn't just me!

I suppose it would be extremely difficult (and likely quite expensive) to make a keyboard that could send a continuous note-off position per key (not just a note-off velocity). But I assume optical note-off position sensors could do it. Apparently even making a continuous damper pedal with enough resolution to let Pianoteq really replicate the behavior of the dampers is too much to hope for. Of course that might also be a MIDI limitation, where MIDI 2.0 would be needed to remove the bottleneck allowing more messages to get through in a very short period of time.

Pianistically wrote:
NathanShirley wrote:

Has no one else with a Kawai VPC1 (or another keyboard that sends low note-off velocities relatively easily) noticed this issue? I'm assuming it's not just mine... It did occur to me that most people might not ever be releasing keys so lightly, particularly after a loud note where the problem is more likely to be noticed. Or perhaps I've just described it poorly!

I do think #4 is a bug that should be fixed.

And #3 is less of an issue because the note-off curve can be adjusted, but I think Pianoteq could be less aggressive. After a lot more playing I ended up setting the beginning of the note-off velocity curve to 0,17. That seems to eliminate the issue for me.

I have noticed the issue with low note off values on several keyboards Kawai, Roland and always use only a [5-127] range for the note-off velocity values to avoid unwanted prolonged sustain issues.

  The hybrids  Yamaha N1X and NV10 use optical sensors but if I recall few discussions on the subject they use an internal protocol different than note off for key release to overcome midi 1.0 limitations as you mention. Regarding continuous damper pedal , I found the Kawai F10H and GFP3 both using optical sensors to be the best currently in the market  when used with midi .  I guess, with respect to pedalling , the NV10 may have the edge when you use it with the internal sounds as it includes a real damper mechanism