Topic by thimgrim

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Topic: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

Hi,

I have a basic Roland FP-10 digital piano. I am not a fan of the sound produced by FP-10 but at least when I play through internal speakers I can hear that the whole FP-10 is playing, sound coming from like under the keys, you know.
But when I switch to VST piano and play with external speakers I hear pressed piano keys, like if you try to play on switched off controller, when I use a bit more force for forte or mezzo forte sometimes.
I was thinking about getting maybe some soundbar and literally sticking it under FP-10 for that same impression like on the internal FP-10 speakers. Does it make any sense, or maybe you have some other hacks?

edit: I tweak the velocity now on FP-10 (with flat velocity in Pianoteq) and I think this might be the way to cancel that noice, or cover it under the real piano sound.

Last edited by thimgrim (26-01-2025 10:53)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

thimgrim wrote:

Hi,

I have a basic Roland FP-10 digital piano. I am not a fan of the sound produced by FP-10 but at least when I play through internal speakers I can hear that the whole FP-10 is playing, sound coming from like under the keys, you know.
But when I switch to VST piano and play with external speakers I hear pressed piano keys, like if you try to play on switched off controller, when I use a bit more force for forte or mezzo forte sometimes.
I was thinking about getting maybe some soundbar and literally sticking it under FP-10 for that same impression like on the internal FP-10 speakers. Does it make any sense, or maybe you have some other hacks?

edit: I tweak the velocity now on FP-10 (with flat velocity in Pianoteq) and I think this might be the way to cancel that noice, or cover it under the real piano sound.

Maybe I am reading you wrong but it sounds like you are conflating three different things.

Q)? It sounds like you are describing the sound of the digital piano playing at the same time as the sound from your speakers?
A) the volume knob should take the sound of the piano down to absolute zero. You should not have to drown this sound out.

Q) it sounds like you want the sound to actually emanate from the piano itself?
A) That's more difficult. Perhaps you have your near field monitors too far apart?
Getting them closer to the keyboard obviously will help minimise the difference for you.

Q) it sounds like you dislike the sound of the mechanical action of the digital piano being pressed?
If this is annoying you then I assume you are playing the audio incredibly quietly?

Maintaining decent fidelity and the goal of having the sound come from the piano itself are mutually exclusive competing interests. The neutrality with regards to the sound of various different presets is maintained by the traditional alignment of the loudspeaker monitors. Attempts to make the sound appear to come from the cabinet itself our diametrically opposite to optimize fidelity. A compromise might be made somewhere. Other users have expressed the desire to have the sound come from the piano itself. Some high end digital pianos may have pretty decent sounding speakers built in that can also play external sound sources like Pianoteq.

Get the speaker monitors as close as possible. Also consider listening with headphones in binaural mode.

Reply by thimgrim

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

This is the most close option

Key Fumbler wrote:

Q) it sounds like you want the sound to actually emanate from the piano itself?
A) That's more difficult. Perhaps you have your near field monitors too far apart?

but not actually this

Turn OFF your digital piano, Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, whatever you have, and try playing on it's keyboard, like forte, mezzo forte. Do you hear something? No. Only the hollow sound of the keys pressed. And when you use your digital piano as a MIDI controller feeding VST it's like playing on turned-off digital piano. The only sound source from the digital piano is that hollow sound (+ spring in the sustain pedal). In other words, my monitors don't mask that hollow sound enough. I hear that hollow sound when I press keys harder, trying to produce forte sound + Pianoteq's sound Steinway D mainly, for example.

I found out now that setting light velocity on FP-10 + hard velocity in Pianoteq will help me play forte with a lighter touch but also preserve the option to play quietly, piano. I have speakers close to the digital piano, but that's not enough, or maybe only on some extreme volume.

Last edited by thimgrim (26-01-2025 16:14)

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

I don't normally notice mechanical noises from my RD-700NX though I do often play staccato forte notes. But I generally monitor at moderately high levels with full-size, near-field powered monitors to get closer to the loudness/presence of a real piano. Maybe a pair of well-insulated closed-back headphones are the answer.

Reply by Kaiser Wilhelm

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

Yes, Headphones will help. I never noticed the issue with Piano, but I have a midi drum set. When playing a vst drum the sound of the pads is much to loud and anoying. Not there when playing back the recording, but unavoidable during play (I obviosly have to hit the pads).

Reply by thimgrim

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

Hey,

Yes. I know headphones “resolve” this problem. I have headphones and on headphones, of course I can't hear mechanical noises, but when starting this topic I had speakers in my mind only. Some digital pianos (Roland FP-30x, I think) can route MIDI signal back to the piano—so you hear VST sound through the internal speakers, but of course, I was a low spender, and now I cry* .

*Okay, it's not so bad, and you can control this with velocity, I think, just need to learn to do this.

But about monitor speakers—what do you recommend? Relatively small and cheap? Like I said, I have speakers, but so-called “shelf speakers”, definitely not with the flat response like monitor speakers should have. Originally bought for TV, but they're terrible for speech listening, so they landed in my small piano room.

Last edited by thimgrim (30-01-2025 09:39)

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

thimgrim wrote:

Hey,

Yes. I know headphones “resolve” this problem. I have headphones and on headphones, of course I can't hear mechanical noises, but when starting this topic I had speakers in my mind only. Some digital pianos (Roland FP-30x, I think) can route MIDI signal back to the piano—so you hear VST sound through the internal speakers, but of course, I was a low spender, and now I cry* .

*Okay, it's not so bad, and you can control this with velocity, I think, just need to learn to do this.

But about monitor speakers—what do you recommend? Relatively small and cheap? Like I said, I have speakers, but so-called “shelf speakers”, definitely not with the flat response like monitor speakers should have. Originally bought for TV, but they're terrible for speech listening, so they landed in my small piano room.

What might happen as well is related to the difference of latency   when you use a VTSi ( pianoteq or other) vs using internal sound of the digital piano which means as there is a delay  between the sound produced by the keys when they hit the keybed and the sound of the external speakers when it reaches your ear so that you ear the  key noises in advance so its more discernible , so you want to try to reduce the latency as much as possible . ( reduce buffer size and increase sample rate) . Even 10 ms of delay which is acceptable for playing piano is discernible by human ear.  When using the internal sound of the DP, the latency is absolutely minimal but as soon as  you use a VTSi , you increase the number of hops,  cable lengths , interfaces and conversions so with  a standard 44,1 MHz/ 128 buffer size , the real latency will be in the 10ms region  and sometimes more.

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Hearing controller piano keys when playing through VST

thimgrim wrote:

But about monitor speakers—what do you recommend? Relatively small and cheap?

A lot of ink has been spilled about monitor quality. I'll just use a motorhead analogy and say "there's no replacement for displacement", and recommend you get something with 8" woofers and upwards of 150W/channel whether powered monitors or passive monitor/speakers with an amp. And buy used if cost is an obstacle. I used consumer stereo amps and speakers for years, then inexpensive Behringer B2031A passive monitors with a used Hafler amp and now Mackie XR824 powered monitors. I was perfectly happy with all of them in their time.