Topic by MartKrui

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Topic: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

So I've got the demo version running on an Raspberry Pi 5. Performance seems good, but it sounds muffled compared to my normal PC.

Soundcard on the rpi is a Pirate Audio headphone amp (hifiberry-dac) but I've also tried my UA Volt 1 I normally use on my PC with the same results.
Using the same pair of headphones for all tests.

Pianoteq version: pianoteq_stage_linux_trial_v813.7z

Some settings that might be relevant:

 <VALUE name="engine_rate" val="48000"/>
 <DEVICESETUP deviceType="ALSA" audioOutputDeviceName="snd_rpi_hifiberry_dac, HifiBerry DAC HiFi pcm5102a-hifi-0; Direct hardware device without any conversions"
                 audioInputDeviceName="" audioDeviceRate="48000.0" audioDeviceBufferSize="128"
                 forceStereo="0"/>
  </VALUE>

I must be doing something wrong.
Has anyone experienced something similar? Any ideas what to try next?

I've done an export (render to file) on both the rPi and my PC and the difference is noticeable in that file as well: blues demo rendering (first the PC then the rPI. Preset is the YC5 Basic)

Last edited by MartKrui (06-12-2023 21:42)

Reply by levinite

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

MartKrui wrote:

So I've got the demo version running on an Raspberry Pi 5. Performance seems good, but it sounds muffled compared to my normal PC.

Soundcard on the rpi is a Pirate Audio headphone amp (hifiberry-dac) but I've also tried my UA Volt 1 I normally use on my PC with the same results.
Using the same pair of headphones for all tests.

Pianoteq version: pianoteq_stage_linux_trial_v813.7z

Some settings that might be relevant:

 <VALUE name="engine_rate" val="48000"/>
 <DEVICESETUP deviceType="ALSA" audioOutputDeviceName="snd_rpi_hifiberry_dac, HifiBerry DAC HiFi pcm5102a-hifi-0; Direct hardware device without any conversions"
                 audioInputDeviceName="" audioDeviceRate="48000.0" audioDeviceBufferSize="128"
                 forceStereo="0"/>
  </VALUE>

I must be doing something wrong.
Has anyone experienced something similar? Any ideas what to try next?

I've done an export (render to file) on both the rPi and my PC and the difference is noticeable in that file as well: blues demo rendering (first the PC then the rPI. Preset is the YC5 Basic)

Pianoteq sounds great on my Pi 5 via HDMI. Indeed, Organteq 2 might be workable (see my post on the Organteq forum). I suspect the new PiOS the the issue, there is a new audio driver and pulseaudio is no longer default. You can try setting pulseaudio using raspi-config.

Reply by MartKrui

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

Thanks for the reply levinite.

Unfortunately my issue isn't solved yet.

I just tried a complete clean re-install of the raspberry pi 5.

My assumption: If I use the "export to audio" function, all hardware is bypassed.

I've exported the demo on both my windows machine and my rpi:
https://kruissen.com/Preset%20demo_rpi.wav
https://kruissen.com/Preset%20demo_win.wav

Both have an internal sample rate of 48KHz.

I think I'm going to ask for some support by modartt.

In my opinion they should sound identical as it is purely rendered by software. But they are quite different.
Because I'm going to be using both, this difference makes it unusable for me on the rpi.

Last edited by MartKrui (19-01-2025 12:13)

Reply by dv

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

MartKrui wrote:

Thanks for the reply levinite.

My assumption: If I use the "export to audio" function, all hardware is bypassed.

The obvious difference is that the level (volume) in the Windows version is much higher which I suspect makes it closer to digital clipping. Not excessively so to be highly distorted, but close enough to make the sound brighter.

Have you tried increasing the volume on the RPi to match, or (IMHO better) decreasing volume on Windows again to match?

Last edited by dv (19-01-2025 15:52)
Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by levinite

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

You are right, only the Pianoteq settings should make a difference when rendered to file. Could there be some filter on the windows machine? Try playing back both renderings on the same machine. Is there still a difference?

Reply by MaurizioP

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

The Pi file is not only "duller", but also much quieter. If you are using the same preset, check if there are any parameters frozen in the PT on Pi.

Last edited by MaurizioP (19-01-2025 18:06)

Reply by levinite

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

As MaurizioP mentioned, the Pi is "duller" but that is the sound I expect as I have a PI 4 and PI 5. I do not get the other sound without some adjustments. In addition I hear this "duller" sound from demos on Pianoteq's website. This may mean the windows machine is the odd one.

Reply by MartKrui

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

levinite wrote:

You are right, only the Pianoteq settings should make a difference when rendered to file. Could there be some filter on the windows machine? Try
playing back both renderings on the same machine. Is there still a difference?

I've listened to both tracks on my windows machine through a Volt 1 and Beyer Dynamic headphones. And the difference in volume and brightness is obvious.

For testing I switched both machines to the same instrument preset without any changes (Shigeru Kaway SK-EX Player) . Also the volume setting in Pianoteq is the same.
The difference in the volume is also very surprising to me.

I'm a software dev myself, so I'm quite surprised by the difference in sound if the code is the same. But it could always be a library that behaves differently on the different architectures.

I searched the forums but couldn't find anything so I've mailed support for help.

Last edited by MartKrui (19-01-2025 19:59)

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

It may seem obvious but... is the difference only happening with Pianoteq ? Not by playing a WAV or using another virtual instrument ? Are you using the Volt1 on the Pi too ? Just questions...

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Reply by levinite

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

I downloaded your posted files. Using audacity it is obvious there is quite a difference in volume which may be in the order of 10dB or so. The windows file seems also to be volume limited but not clipped and slightly longer. Many times I see 0dB is reached, where the rpi file only hits about -6 dB. If you can find what causes this difference in volume I think you will at least have some of the answer. An idea you may consider is posting the A vs B results using say YC5 basic vs YC5 player or something on both machines because this shows many internal setting changes they may not be easy to notice, but I would however, expect the changes to match from machine to machine.

Although, it is possible Pianoteq renders differently on the different machines it seems more likely to be a missed setting. I might also try a different rendering option when creating the file. No doubt, you have already considered some of this so Pianoteq devs may be your last option and rest assured they will get to the bottom of it. Since the original post is getting older, you probably want to update the versions you use for pianoteq on each machine. Good luck.

Reply by MartKrui

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

levinite wrote:

I Since the original post is getting older, you probably want to update the versions you use for pianoteq on each machine. Good luck.

Forgot to mention that both are running 8.4.0. (registered on windows, trial on rPi) (I can't edit the original post)

Luc Henrion wrote:

It may seem obvious but... is the difference only happening with Pianoteq ? Not by playing a WAV or using another virtual instrument ? Are you using the Volt1 on the Pi too ? Just questions...

I did originally test with the same audio hardware (Volt 1) which had the same difference in audio.

I'm now using the "export to audio" function in Pianoteq for two reasons:
1st: it should eliminate all audio hardware differences 
2nd: it allows for easier comparison and I can let others hear what I'm hearing

levinite wrote:

This may mean the windows machine is the odd one.

Interesting thought. Luckily I know someone else with Pianoteq so I'll ask them to make the same audio file and compare.
For the ones playing along at home: V8.4.0 - Shigeru Kaway SK-EX Player - Render to audio - lossless wav - standard demo midi file

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll now wait for some hints from support.

Last edited by MartKrui (20-01-2025 13:49)

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

To me this sounds like RPi is not playing things at the same velocity. Even if you volume match the two audio files, things are not the same timbrally - this is not just a volume difference. Definitely seems like some parameters are not set up identically.

Last edited by EvilDragon (21-01-2025 14:21)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by kihar

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

Is the velocity curve same with both instaces? Is there offset in reading midi values?

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

Exactly what I thought.

EvilDragon wrote:

To me this sounds like RPi is not playing things at the same velocity. Even if you volume match the two audio files, things are not the same timbrally - this is not just a volume difference. Definitely seems like some parameters are not set up identically.

Last edited by Beto-Music (21-01-2025 16:57)

Reply by MartKrui

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Re: Pianoteq on Rpi5 sounds like it has a cold (no highs)

kihar wrote:

Is the velocity curve same with both instaces? Is there offset in reading midi values?

I think this was the difference.

Modartt support contacted me and asked me to do another test. This time I copied the same midi file, fxp and mfxp to both instances and exported the audio.

And they sound identical!

So it was my error. I thought I had the same settings everywhere but I didn't.

Thank you all for your inputs and sorry to waste your time