Topic: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

Hello everyone and best wishes!

Here is my first little scribbled composition for the year.

Again and again on a poem by Jules Laforgue, which to my knowledge has never been set to music and remains too largely unknown.

Always his biting irony in this invocation to the moon, taken as a witness but silent and mortuary.

Compared to a church rose window in the night, compared even with what could foreshadow an expressionist nightmare an empty dish having received the head of Saint John Baptist! Very strong for a young man who died at the age of 27 in 1887!

To finally lead to the bitter observation of impotence and the ridiculous.

And since we are on the Pianoteq forum, I am not totally off topic:

I use a kind of piano chimera here. The piano is a mixture of the BBCSO pro that I find very beautiful, mixed only with the resonances and noises of the table and mechanics of Pianoteq 8. So I combined the sampled piano and the modeled piano, to add this dose of non-linear artifacts that cannot be found with a sample. I probably still have a lot of tests to do to improve the answer but I must say that it excites me.

I had tried to use only one Pianoteq piano for the accompaniment (I have in addition to the pianos provided, the Bösendorfer and the Kawai) but I did not exactly find the balance that seemed to me the most suitable for a simulation exercise of a sound recording in chamber music. It seemed to me almost too neutral, too clear while I also look for the defects related to a capture of this nature (piano singing like Lied).

My voice is picked up by a couple of Schoeps MK4 in XY.

Mixing under Reaper with some plugin and hardware that I like.

I hope your criticism!

https://youtu.be/uxKjjJIlRmw?si=SMOeNTVlDjzrDTc1

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

A nice descriptive poem, sung well!

A great clear beginning, but I felt the piano at times was too muddy, too dark and detracted from the vocal sentiment.

I presume you are singing and playing at the same time? It is possible to 'master' the recording to enhance the balance, support the ambiance and give polish to what could be an exciting rendition of an original, contemporary composition.

Thanks for sharing - hope you don't mind the critique???

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

DEZ wrote:

A nice descriptive poem, sung well!

A great clear beginning, but I felt the piano at times was too muddy, too dark and detracted from the vocal sentiment.

I presume you are singing and playing at the same time? It is possible to 'master' the recording to enhance the balance, support the ambiance and give polish to what could be an exciting rendition of an original, contemporary composition.

Thanks for sharing - hope you don't mind the critique???

Thank you for listening. I fully understand your point of view. My choices were intentional, precisely to set the piano as much as possible with the realism of a piano /singing type capture (where the piano can sound precisely with this slightly dense and dark mixed side).

I don't play while singing. I first record the piano part.

What I will propose you is an alternative version with Pianoteq 8 as a piano (I was working there precisely for the exercise). You will then hear the Bösendorfer 280 (modified) and which sounds much more precise while I tried keeping a certain warmth (I had the privilege of owning in my past a real Bösendorfer 200 (1/2) piano that is no longer in my possession unfortunately. I used it mainly as an accompaniment piano as part of my activity as a singer, or for my sound recording activity for models that I made at the time. It was an infinite pleasure to play and record.

So here is to compare the Pianoteq 8 version (Bösendorfer, with the Schoeps MK2 virtual microphones that I also know very well since I have the MK2s. The proposed standard mixing is too defined and too clear for my taste (Blumlein from U87 and DPA nearby).

En tout cas, votre réaction très constructive m'incite à explorer le plus de pistes possibles (sachant que je pense qu'il me reste encore beaucoup d'explorations possibles pour Pianoteq !)...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p8xBQl...share_link

Here is a link to a Melody by Poulenc recorded with a pianist friend at the time on my real Bösendorfer 200 in the space dear to me that was used for recordings (a large high ceiling library). The piano was sometimes a little capricious also with its small slits of the table that could vibrate depending on the degree of humidity. It was a 1975 instrument that had been restored, and it was really..... My (big) baby! The singer's dream. to be able to have such an instrument at home.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gx7fcgwa...v&dl=0

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

Krisp wrote:

Hello everyone and best wishes!

Here is my first little scribbled composition for the year.

Again and again on a poem by Jules Laforgue, which to my knowledge has never been set to music and remains too largely unknown.

Always his biting irony in this invocation to the moon, taken as a witness but silent and mortuary.

Compared to a church rose window in the night, compared even with what could foreshadow an expressionist nightmare an empty dish having received the head of Saint John Baptist! Very strong for a young man who died at the age of 27 in 1887!

To finally lead to the bitter observation of impotence and the ridiculous.

And since we are on the Pianoteq forum, I am not totally off topic:

I use a kind of piano chimera here. The piano is a mixture of the BBCSO pro that I find very beautiful, mixed only with the resonances and noises of the table and mechanics of Pianoteq 8. So I combined the sampled piano and the modeled piano, to add this dose of non-linear artifacts that cannot be found with a sample. I probably still have a lot of tests to do to improve the answer but I must say that it excites me.

I had tried to use only one Pianoteq piano for the accompaniment (I have in addition to the pianos provided, the Bösendorfer and the Kawai) but I did not exactly find the balance that seemed to me the most suitable for a simulation exercise of a sound recording in chamber music. It seemed to me almost too neutral, too clear while I also look for the defects related to a capture of this nature (piano singing like Lied).

My voice is picked up by a couple of Schoeps MK4 in XY.

Mixing under Reaper with some plugin and hardware that I like.

I hope your criticism!

https://youtu.be/uxKjjJIlRmw?si=SMOeNTVlDjzrDTc1

Very interesting this piece, it's a little outside the genre I generally listen to but harmonically what you composed is really interesting and captivating. Dark nuances and very dense music.
Thanks for sharing it.
Carmelo

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

carmelo.paolucci wrote:
Krisp wrote:

Hello everyone and best wishes!

Here is my first little scribbled composition for the year.

Again and again on a poem by Jules Laforgue, which to my knowledge has never been set to music and remains too largely unknown.

Always his biting irony in this invocation to the moon, taken as a witness but silent and mortuary.

Compared to a church rose window in the night, compared even with what could foreshadow an expressionist nightmare an empty dish having received the head of Saint John Baptist! Very strong for a young man who died at the age of 27 in 1887!

To finally lead to the bitter observation of impotence and the ridiculous.

And since we are on the Pianoteq forum, I am not totally off topic:

I use a kind of piano chimera here. The piano is a mixture of the BBCSO pro that I find very beautiful, mixed only with the resonances and noises of the table and mechanics of Pianoteq 8. So I combined the sampled piano and the modeled piano, to add this dose of non-linear artifacts that cannot be found with a sample. I probably still have a lot of tests to do to improve the answer but I must say that it excites me.

I had tried to use only one Pianoteq piano for the accompaniment (I have in addition to the pianos provided, the Bösendorfer and the Kawai) but I did not exactly find the balance that seemed to me the most suitable for a simulation exercise of a sound recording in chamber music. It seemed to me almost too neutral, too clear while I also look for the defects related to a capture of this nature (piano singing like Lied).

My voice is picked up by a couple of Schoeps MK4 in XY.

Mixing under Reaper with some plugin and hardware that I like.

I hope your criticism!

https://youtu.be/uxKjjJIlRmw?si=SMOeNTVlDjzrDTc1

Very interesting this piece, it's a little outside the genre I generally listen to but harmonically what you composed is really interesting and captivating. Dark nuances and very dense music.
Thanks for sharing it.
Carmelo

Thank you! Nice to read that!

I know from experience that the classic (or "modern") piano/ classical singing genre is not the easiest to share or like, so I am all the more touched by your comment!

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

Krisp wrote:

[Je vais] explorer le plus de pistes possibles (je pense qu'il me reste encore beaucoup d'explorations possibles pour Pianoteq !)...

I wish you well with your further delving!  I listened to the second piece on dropbox and found the 'Big Baby' to sound quite bright, the string Unison width quite wide and the overall impedance slightly lower than Modartt's Bos offering. I feel this sound could easily be emulated in PTeq.

Perhaps you could beg the founding father for his fourier analysis software he released years ago and use this to 'tune' the piano to your liking adding the items I found above?

Or you could read his book??? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Acoustic...00BQ07Q50/ Too expensive for me - and I don't think the library will carry a copy

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

The last note and chord of your Picasso recording is below with a quick and dirty attempt to emulate the sound following it...


I used the Bosendorfer V280 as a basis. I noticed that your beloved 'Big Baby' had quite a ring to it which I haven't emulated as I think it's something to do with the age of the strings?

Perhaps Mo D'Art can add a new parameter to PianoTeq - Aged strings or Material? Metal, Old Metal, Nylon, Gut, etcetera...


https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...arison.mp3

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

DEZ wrote:

The last note and chord of your Picasso recording is below with a quick and dirty attempt to emulate the sound following it...


I used the Bosendorfer V280 as a basis. I noticed that your beloved 'Big Baby' had quite a ring to it which I haven't emulated as I think it's something to do with the age of the strings?

Perhaps Mo D'Art can add a new parameter to PianoTeq - Aged strings or Material? Metal, Old Metal, Nylon, Gut, etcetera...


https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...arison.mp3

Haha all this is outside my skills. For this recording, I simply placed my pairs of microphones, entrusted the chord to a professional tuner, sang and played the accompaniment by a professional pianist.

Sometimes we can't control everything in real life, which is not as easily malleable as Pianoteq!

Thank you for your courageous attempt in any case to approach the real Bösendorfer 200. I think it's still far from the account and that the supposed defects are also, on the one hand, the qualities.

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

KrispThank you for your courageous attempt  [... wrote:

I think it's still far from the [picture] and that the supposed defects are also, on the one hand, the qualities.

True, too many factors to get a completely accurate representation; the pianist's touch - no two are alike, the room ambiance / furnishings absorption, hard surface reflections, etc. Coupled with, the age and mechanical soundness of the piano, the piano tuner's octave stretching - not as mathematical as Mo D'art's model I think (???), the microphone pickup, the software DAW used to 'produce' the recording, etcetera.

I've added a lot more room ambiance to the following and the modified Piano is starting to ring in that alarming way I've always fought over the years as found on older pianos. At least, that's what I hear through my Steinheiser HD 558 headphones using Cubase Pro 14 to host. It doesn't ring so much through the computer Philips speakers... and compressing the audio file for here also takes away a lot of the 'shine' so who knows what you might hear?


https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...mp%202.mp3

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

DEZ wrote:
KrispThank you for your courageous attempt  [... wrote:

I think it's still far from the [picture] and that the supposed defects are also, on the one hand, the qualities.

True, too many factors to get a completely accurate representation; the pianist's touch - no two are alike, the room ambiance / furnishings absorption, hard surface reflections, etc. Coupled with, the age and mechanical soundness of the piano, the piano tuner's octave stretching - not as mathematical as Mo D'art's model I think (???), the microphone pickup, the software DAW used to 'produce' the recording, etcetera.

I've added a lot more room ambiance to the following and the modified Piano is starting to ring in that alarming way I've always fought over the years as found on older pianos. At least, that's what I hear through my Steinheiser HD 558 headphones using Cubase Pro 14 to host. It doesn't ring so much through the computer Philips speakers... and compressing the audio file for here also takes away a lot of the 'shine' so who knows what you might hear?


https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...mp%202.mp3

I hear an imbalance in piano singing. In addition, the voice seems repitched to me (Maybe my listening?)
Thank you anyway for your tests. It's always interesting.

Last edited by Krisp (19-01-2025 17:32)

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

i thought it was a lovely piece/performance!  a beautiful poem to set to music, as well.

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

budo wrote:

i thought it was a lovely piece/performance!  a beautiful poem to set to music, as well.

Thanks !

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

About this poem (I think it can be useful to clarify it since even in French it can seem strange).

This text by Jules Laforgue is indeed fascinating. While it may appear abstruse at first glance, it invites the reader to join the poetic “dance” in order to uncover its deeper meanings.

To begin with, like much of Laforgue’s work, this text is relatively unknown here in France. As a reminder, Jules Laforgue died in 1886 of pulmonary phthisis, a disease that defined the end of the 19th century and persisted into the next. Frequently referenced in art, it reached its literary zenith in works such as Thomas Mann’s The Magic Mountain.

In this poem, although Laforgue uses certain thematic elements drawn from medical vocabulary, he is not addressing the tuberculosis that would claim his life less than a year later.

Instead, he revisits a theme he had explored before: an invocation to the moon, treating it as a silent witness. I previously set another of his poems, Complaint of the Moon in the Provinces, to music, which also centered on this motif.

Here, the moon, once confided in for sorrows and heartbreaks in the earlier lament, becomes something much more unsettling: still silent, but now mocking, like stained glass in a church at night—soulless, dead, or languid in the chloroform haze of the clouds. It remains indifferent, even as the poet suffocates—perhaps from illness, love, or solitude.

The absurdity of the poet’s situation is stark. His bad romances (béquinades—a now-obsolete French word) provoke derisive laughter, highlighting how his “platonic” (idealized) loves are reduced to nothing more than the trivial musings of an ordinary man. His imagined grandeur is deflated, exposing the ridiculousness of his human condition.

This obsession builds into a chant-like rhythm, escalating into a true nightmare. The enigmatic phrase, “I want to - your sad paten, widowed dish of the chef of Saint John the Baptist”, takes center stage. This is where the poem becomes almost proto-expressionist. Mystical imagery permeates the poem, but here it becomes unnerving.

The paten refers to the dish that holds the Eucharistic host. In this vision, the moon is transformed into a dish—a plate in the sky—that once received the severed head of Saint John the Baptist. Now, it is an empty vessel, once an instrument of horror, reduced to a pale, lifeless object.

At first, I hesitated to set this part of the poem to music due to its strangeness. Similarly, the inclusion of Salve Regina seemed too overtly religious. Yet, it is precisely this disorientation that defines the poem. The saint being invoked is none other than the moon—the “white lady” of folklore, queen of the night, whom he wishes to pierce with his phalènes.

This, as you noted, is where the carnal implications are most evident. The phalènes, or moths, symbolize his poetic verses, which he uses to pierce the sanctified face of the moon. Yet, the phonetic similarity to phallus cannot be ignored. This could suggest a symbolic act of violation—taboo and transgressive.

In the closing lines, “I want to find a Lied that touches you to make you emigrate to my mouth”, the poet seeks words powerful enough to draw the moon, his beloved, saint, or muse, to him. He desires a Lied—a song, popular or stylized—to achieve this connection. Laforgue, who lived in Germany as a reader for a countess, was undoubtedly familiar with Schubert’s Lieder.

For me, the theme resonates with Der Lindenbaum from Winterreise, the epitome of Romanticism. That Lied inspired the musical motif I used here. Both poems share a similar springboard: an invocation to nature (the lime tree in one, the moon in the other) as a confidant and source of solace.

Laforgue’s melancholy mirrors Schubert’s: the consolation sought is ultimately unattainable. By the poem’s end, the observation is bitter. No rhymes remain, no words suffice—everything has been tried, all in vain. Yet, it is neither tragic nor pathetic, for tragedy is too sublime. Instead, it is simply futile, almost absurd.

In my musical setting, I chose to reflect this futility by paring down the music after the preceding deluge of sound.

Finally, a word on the poem’s rhythm, which I sought to capture musically. It is a decasyllable—a ten-syllable meter with a feminine rhyme at the end of each line. This form is rare, as more regular, symmetrical meters are usually preferred for their balance, particularly with clear caesurae.

Here, however, the rhythm feels obsessive, deliberately strange. Notably, Laforgue’s earlier moon poem (Complaint of the Moon in the Provinces) used strict seven-syllable lines—a metric that hints at unreason. For this setting, I used a 6/4 (or 12/8) time signature to accommodate the ten-syllable lines while emphasizing the rhythmic punctuation of each verse with two beats. The entire piece is driven by an ostinato of eight eighth notes and two quarter notes.

Re: Jeu for Piano & baryton, poème de Jules Laforgue

wow!  thanks for that detailed tour through the poem and your compositional thoughts.  very fascinating!