Topic by BKBroiler

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Topic: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Hey there, another annoying question! I'm thinking of buying new dedicated over-ear headphones to isolate me (and those around me) for the countless hours I intend to spend practicing, but I'm wondering: are wireless bluetooth 5 headphones low latency enough for pianoteq? I remember trying them years ago and it was completely impossible to play this way. Is the note lag noticeable?

I'm considering some sub 400$ magnetic planar headphones, just wondering if it's worth looking into models that have wireless + wired modes, or just wired.

Reply by georg

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

BKBroiler wrote:

Hey there, another annoying question! I'm thinking of buying new dedicated over-ear headphones to isolate me (and those around me) for the countless hours I intend to spend practicing, but I'm wondering: are wireless bluetooth 5 headphones low latency enough for pianoteq? I remember trying them years ago and it was completely impossible to play this way. Is the note lag noticeable?

I'm considering some sub 400$ magnetic planar headphones, just wondering if it's worth looking into models that have wireless + wired modes, or just wired.

Even with AptX Low Latency codec you will have at least 40ms latency...

But there are wireless headphones, which you could try:
https://www.thomann.de/de/aiaiai_tma_2_...reless.htm

These support bluetooth, but have also an special low latency mode (16ms)

Last edited by georg (22-11-2022 17:13)

Reply by sjgcit

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

I would suggest prioritizing audio quality and comfort over wireless.

Wireless is kinda attractive, but presumably you bought Pianoteq to get the great quality instruments, so I'd say first quality of audio and everything else later.  Use sites like rtings.com to find a headset with the qualities you want - they've a super detailed search feature - and maybe you'll find a wireless headset that works and maybe you'll find a wired one is better for your needs.  But audio quality first IMO.

Likewise responsiveness to touch is one of Pianoteq's great assets.  Putting wireless latency or drop-outs (which happen) between you and the instrument seems counter-productive to me.  So again I'd recommend wired instead of wireless.

If you wear them for hours comfort is an absolute must.  Don't neglect this over a gimmick (IMO) like wireless.

Wireless is OK for a mouse and keyboard, but can still cause issues there, so I'm not sure why people think wireless for playing an instrument is a good idea.  I have wireless earbuds for travel, but I'd never use them for Pianoteq.

Also note that some features (possibly low latency modes) require version 5+ bluetooth which you may not have access to.  My PC only has a version 4 implementation.  If you do go wireless make sure you have the interface to support all the advertised features of your headset.

StephenG

Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

sjgcit wrote:

I would suggest prioritizing audio quality and comfort over wireless.

Wireless is kinda attractive, but presumably you bought Pianoteq to get the great quality instruments, so I'd say first quality of audio and everything else later.  Use sites like rtings.com to find a headset with the qualities you want - they've a super detailed search feature - and maybe you'll find a wireless headset that works and maybe you'll find a wired one is better for your needs.  But audio quality first IMO.

Likewise responsiveness to touch is one of Pianoteq's great assets.  Putting wireless latency or drop-outs (which happen) between you and the instrument seems counter-productive to me.  So again I'd recommend wired instead of wireless.

If you wear them for hours comfort is an absolute must.  Don't neglect this over a gimmick (IMO) like wireless.

Wireless is OK for a mouse and keyboard, but can still cause issues there, so I'm not sure why people think wireless for playing an instrument is a good idea.  I have wireless earbuds for travel, but I'd never use them for Pianoteq.

Also note that some features (possibly low latency modes) require version 5+ bluetooth which you may not have access to.  My PC only has a version 4 implementation.  If you do go wireless make sure you have the interface to support all the advertised features of your headset.

Yep, you guys are right, latency is too important to add any, I decided to try some wired magnetic planar headphones, dedicated for my piano station. I've got a dual stand coming too for eventually putting a ROLI Seaboard 2 on the top shelf.

Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Ended up ordering these, I guess planar magnetic could be a good fit for lots of heavy hammering away on various pianos for hours a day without bothering my wife too much due to the closed can design.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B079YZF9YS/

I'll probably run the wires down my back so they don't get in the way of my arms while playing.

Reply by jazzos

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Forget about wireless headphones for playing music period. It always adds latency which is intolerable. There is a reason people use good (wired) interfaces usually with dedicated drivers for monitoring while recording themselves to get down to sub 5-millisecond delays. I think perhaps you could get up to 10-12 ms of delay and still be able to play, but for me 20-30 ms is totally unacceptable. By the way, a $1 set of earbuds that are wired will be less annoying than a $1000 pair of wireless headphones.

There are people who play pipe organs with long mechanical delays between the time when a key is depressed and a sound comes out so the human brain may be able to learn to deal with this but it would be way easier to use wired headphones.

Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Update: I returned the Monolith planar magnetics because the wired connection wasn't stable (cuts out when I turn my head), and the sound didn't "wow" me like I thought it would. So I've been using my in-ear Periodic Audio Beryllium headphones in the meanwhile, which sound better but I don't think will last for too long with me banging away on the keyboard.

Now, luckily there's a new affordable option for planar magnetic by Audeze, which seems interesting and I'll probably try:

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/8/2349...ures-price

It has 80 hours battery life in wireless mode and a closed back for good isolation while practicing without disturbing anyone (or being disturbed), plus a wire for connecting to the audio output on my Numa GT directly.

I like that there's only one wire on the left, too, instead of one to each can like most planar magnetic. If the sound and comfort are good, I'll keep it.

What is interesting is the LC3plus codec apparently has an ultra-low 2.5ms latency mode that may just be what Pianoteq players have been hoping for.

I'll report back here when I get a pair and try it out.

Last edited by BKBroiler (12-01-2023 01:59)

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Slightly off-topic, but how do you like the Numa GT?

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Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

miiindbullets wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but how do you like the Numa GT?

Love it more and more every day, don't have a single regret with the purchase. I would definitely advise people play it though, some think it's better than FP90X, others don't. I'm not even one of those people to say "these things are purely subjective" because things like fast single note repetitions aren't really subjective, they are just hard for people to quantify in a scientifically rigorous manner. But that doesn't mean there aren't objectively better / worse aspects to different keybeds. I haven't experienced any passages yet where I struggled because of the keys, it's all about my own skill (or lack thereof) which is exactly what I wanted out of my upgrade.

I'm really excited for the new Maxwell planar headphones though, to see if the 2.5ms wireless mode is playable. If it is, combined with 80 hour battery life, I think these may be headphones that I use quite a lot. I may reverse the way the audio is routed, too, right now I have Pianoteq through Windows Exclusive mode pumping out to the USB speaker device on the GT, so I can mix it all with local instruments (some of which are really nice), and run it the other way instead, as an input to the PC. But I have to see how that works or if it's possible with Windows exclusive mode, or ASIO4ALL maybe (which I couldn't get to work before).

Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Audeze Maxwell reviews are very good, going to pull the trigger and order it next week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFVOH026VH4


Hopefully wireless mode will be low-enough latency for PTQ use. I'll report back here in case anyone's interested.

Otherwise I'll just use it wired.

Apparently it still uses the onboard processing / DSP even when using a 3.5mm analog input, to fix the inherent issues with planar drivers, but the batteries last 80 hours or so so that's fine. I have a feeling I may end up getting less lag with Maxwell on its dedicated dongle from my PC than routed through my Numa X over USB then back out. I like using the Numa X as its own sound source for multi layering (strings, etc), but I feel like I'll end up just using my PC(s) for all the sound generation anyway.

I will try BT 5.2 on my AX210 wifi 6e card. I'm also getting BT 5.3 next week or two in my new system so I'll see if 5.3 vs 5.2 is any big difference.

Last edited by BKBroiler (23-02-2023 01:01)

Reply by BKBroiler

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Re: Are BT 5.x wireless headphones low-latency enough for PTQ?

Update: I have the Maxwells now and they do indeed play Pianoteq wirelessly w/o any noticeable lag via the dongle. I used Windows Exclusive mode and the lowest sample count to reduce latency to a minimum. Without Windows Exclusive I can set my Numa X PianoGT line in (via USB) to play back simultaneously the onboard sounds with pianoteq, but that does increase latency a tiny bit (still very playable though). I haven't tried using a combination of wired and wireless at the same time to get both PianoTeq and onboard sounds (via the 1/4 inch line out from my keyboard), but I might try that soon. The headset does have a 3.5mm analog input but it's still powered when using analog input as planar magnetic drivers require the use of a DSP to sound good.

The 80+ hour battery life plus closed cans provide good isolation for practicing, so it's a superb headset option without disturbing others around you (or being disturbed by them). Highly recommended you try it if you're after something wireless that's suitable for piano. They're a bit heavy (450g) but the weight is balanced and the comfort is great.

Planar magnetic drivers sound a bit different than normal drivers, so it may take some time getting used to. But there are tons of EQ curve options to play around with.

Most reviews say the music audio quality is top notch (especially for planars at this price) although it's not perfect for every reviewer. Most are very positive though. I'm very happy with there being no wire while I play and enjoy the sound quality greatly. Never worrying about the battery is also super awesome. As is the microphone quality for zoom calls or whatever. (probably singing is OK with it, but I don't sing).

https://majorhifi.com/audeze-maxwell-wi...et-review/