The new resonance feature for audio input is wonderful, adding so much realism to the piano sound in a mix! Currently it is working as an insert effect by default. Is there a setting to mute the input signal, thus making it a send effect? If not, can we see it in the future? Thanks!
I'd also like to see this!
There's something interesting going on here. I tried setting up two tracks and phase-reversing one, to see if I could get a "wet-only" output by cancelling out the dry signal. It doesn't work. Next to "duplex scale" in the UI, there's an icon you can click to get a dry/wet slider. The 100% dry signal isn't actually a copy of the input signal; it already has some higher harmonics.
It gets weirder. If you turn Pianoteq's volume slider down to zero, the audio input still gets passed through (slightly modified).
Try this:
- Two tracks, each with an instance of Pianoteq receiving the same audio input
- One track with zero volume (volume slider all the way to the left, "off")
- The other track at normal volume but phase reversed
- Both with audio input at 100% wet
- Experiment with different values of the sympathetic resonance slider
I think the cancellation isn't quite perfect (it's hard to tell exactly what's going on), but it's pretty good.
It's a super tool. Thanks for detailing some of your experimentations hanysz.
I'm loving it for reverb-like.. non-reverb FX. Theoretically, with nicely tuned resonances mixed in low, there may be less need for reberb to be up higher - taking things to a different level in terms of allowing some greater nearness to various personally specific hyper-realistic recording styles/aims.
In some DAWs I haven't found a way to get it to work easily, but in others there are some ways to do different things with it.
In Cakewalk (an old lovable fav DAW, now free), you can use any audio track and choose Pianoteq 8 when you find insert a 'soft synth'.. it's a really nice simple way to go. That audio now gets passed through Pianoteq - and that's where Pianoteq's wet/dry slider is king. (If wanting to keep the clean audio track, sure.. just bounce the soft-synth mix, then remove the instrument and now you have 2 tracks, the 2nd resonant one to mix down to taste - and less CPU etc. from not having the instrument running live).
In other DAWs using side-chaining can work well.. making other audio and instruments play through and triggering the Pianoteq instance's resonances, dry/wet etc.
For making results even more interesting, altering Pianoteq's tuning (some of the presets in 'Advanced tuning' like 'Gamma scale' for example) can give wonderfully atonal 'reverb-like' resonances - which can work with other reverb FX sends etc.. it's excellent for really creating anything from hyper-realistic extra resonances, or to tune the way reverbs take to, or glue into a mix with the piano (balancing dry/wet and clean instances of Pianoteq along with the resonance tracks and.. sky seems the limit really for detailed sound design ideals).
One track could be Pianoteq with resonances turned down low/off.. and second track just the resonances from a different piano model/preset.. and mixing those 2 things, may give some seriously interesting new piano-like results. Can be used almost like morphing just resonances with other pianos in a DAW.
Great addition!
Thanks for the tip re different tunings! Also try changing the diapason with the "string tension" option.
In some DAWs I haven't found a way to get it to work easily, but in others there are some ways to do different things with it.
Have you used it with Ableton Live? How to set PT 8 as audio filter in AL?
In two piano foruns I heard people complaning or even accusing pianoteq of had become a sampler, after they noticed what they described as a very improved sound tone and lack of sympathetic ressonance.
Of course this sounds like an absurd !!! ...But I wonder if in some systems can have a bug causing sympathetic ressonance to get very low, or maybe some feature made few users confused leading to wrong settings in particular cases.
Thanks for the tip re different tunings! Also try changing the diapason with the "string tension" option.
++ Yes, I like the ease of altering diapason in Pianoteq. It's especially interesting with string tension instead of full rebuild for sure - lots of excellent sounds possible.. like low bass - layering bass layers with low diapason with string tension, giving extreme growling soundscapes So fun.
Have use it with Ableton Live? How to set PT 8 as audio filter in AL?
No, sorry Maurizio I haven't tried with Ableton Live. My instinct is that it probably should (it's been great for lots of different workflows in the past). I still have a few years' old version of the suit on a different machine.. but have since jumped to others, mainly Studio One, in which I can't yet get the feature to gel, annoyingly.. there's only about 2 or 3 things S1 seems to lack for my use cases, this being one. Oh well.
My guess though, is Ableton would likely be able to work with the new feature somehow.
But, for me Cakewalk wins the "easy to do this" prize so far. I'll probably be sticking to it for old-school charm and some tricks like 'soft synth' with Pianoteq 8, but Studio One mostly.
I wonder if in some systems can have a bug causing sympathetic ressonance to get very low, or maybe some feature made few users confused leading to wrong settings in particular cases
Good point Beto. I haven't detected any bleed when normal pianos are loaded normally but if some users try the resonance pass-through feature it's possible that some attain unexpected results, esp. since there are more than one way to use the feature, that and maybe also until it becomes more spoken about on the forum, I suppose it may remain a little mysterious and have some happy users saying wow and those who don't care or not getting into it saying meh
There are always going to be people gathering in tribes tho to say "it's obvious that black is blue" and nodding and patting each other on the back for being so smart.. like those HTML table layout gurus who spent nearly a decade yelling CSS is stupid - not worth thinking about what they say IMHO.
Hope you're happy and well
MaurizioP wrote:Have use it with Ableton Live? How to set PT 8 as audio filter in AL?
No, sorry Maurizio I haven't tried with Ableton Live. My instinct is that it probably should (it's been great for lots of different workflows in the past). I still have a few years' old version of the suit on a different machine.. but have since jumped to others, mainly Studio One, in which I can't yet get the feature to gel, annoyingly.. there's only about 2 or 3 things S1 seems to lack for my use cases, this being one. Oh well.
My guess though, is Ableton would likely be able to work with the new feature somehow.
Thanks for the answer, but how can I try to use PT as audio filter - in AL I cannot add it as an effect to audio track, only to midi.
Here is a short demo using P8 as an effect for the Garritan PO 5 Flute
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Teq_FX.mp3
The DAW (Cubase P12) has three tracks:
A midi track which is routed to the P8 FX
A second midi track routed to the Aria player for the flute
A third instrument track which is the Aria player with P8 applied as an Insert
I used the SD Classic preset and turned off P8's internal effects so as to hear only the string resonance applied to the 'Flute.' You can clearly hear that the strings vibrate in sympathy to the flute tones when the dampers are lifted (hence the first midi track) and how the resonance stops once the dampers are lowered.
This is a fantastic way to add an instrument to the Piano Environment that you are playing the piano in !
..Here is the same experiment with the FX piano changed from SD Classic to U4 Tall...
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f..._FX_U4.mp3
Quite a contrast from the earlier one !!!
Just had to check that I wasn't sending CC64 to the flute on the U4T...
Further experimentation:
Using P7 Xylophone Soft with FX all switched off and feeding it through the P8 we get this...
Fed through P8 SDC (Steinway Model D)
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Reverb.mp3
Fed through P8 U4T (Upright Tall)
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Reverb.mp3
There's so much fun to be had...
Fine examples DEZ - really show some good ways to involve the feature, and why to do so!
@Mauricio.. being a new feature, it's probably possible to use it in ways nobody has tried yet.. but perhaps mostly, via a side-chain or as a soft synth insert.
My guess is that since it's not a surface visible feature for standalone mode, those of us who use these kinds of features in a DAW will probably keep experimenting and talking about results, techniques etc. over time. Eventually, several 'best ways' and maybe even good DAWs to recommend will come from that.. but time will tell.
Perhaps in the near future, some idea of 'how/why people use this' will become more apparent, and the feature may evolve beyond how it is now, to include maybe some more visible controls for doing things in various DAWs, and maybe some really more detailed info in the manual etc.. early days for this feature I'd say.
To do this in Ableton though.. still have not tried (like I say, mine is some years old and on another machine I no longer use). Will try installing on new machine when I can.. but can't say when - hopefully tonight.
It's possibly doable in some ways.. but if you are new to DAWs - I'd honestly suggest keeping Ableton, but with a view to return to it when you feel like it ( loved it but is has a mix of it's own ways to do things, and endless options, which I felt kept interfering with my workflow.. a great great DAW but often it demanded me to work it's way, rather than a better way for what I do.. but others love it's workflow - but it's not a DAW I'd recommend for 1st time users of DAWs to be clear.. similarly wouldn't recommend Pro Tools first.. when it comes down to it, Cakewalk will be probably my ideal 1st DAW recommendation because it includes much of 'old-school' workflows, along with ease of use.. then once you get to know more about how you want to work, you can later more easily discover DAW X or Y will suit you better.. or a combination etc.)..
but for early days, you could probably learn some use cases easier with others.. like I'd suggest to try Cakewalk, Reaper or Cubase like DEZ's examples used.
I definitely know that in good ol' Cakewalk (free) it's extremely simple and I'd recommend to use this feature like this:
On any track (like a flute part like the ones DEZ provided for examples above), right-click the area where you add 'inserts', then select, insert 'soft synth'.. then select Pianoteq 8. Was surprised it was so clean/simple and easy this way.. no need for routings/side-chain logic flow.
I could only wish it worked that simply in all DAWs. Kind of frustrated that some DAWs just cannot facilitate all the various options.. but it's life
What you see at that point, is Pianoteq open in front of us - and editable of course to alter sounds.. main thing to do is move the Pianoteq 'wet/dry' slider so you can work on its tones. You can choose more 'wooden' or 'string' resonances with the accompanying balance slider.
What we hear, is Pianoteq's internal resonances being excited by the audio being fed through it. (for a solid mental image, maybe imagine a transducer attached to the piano's soundboard and harp, thumping audio signal into those parts.. but with the super-power of cutting all source volume, leaving only what the piano sounds like.. and that's editable into the realms of the fantastic.).
Using a DAW, it's possible to 'mix down' what we hear to new audio tracks.. and everything about that is absolutely to our own tastes and liking - and IMHO you can only learn best by doing this.
But, sorry I don't have current Ableton on the machine with Pianoteq (it's my production machine with 2 DAWs I use most, Studio One and Cakewalk). If time permits soon, I'll go install Ableton on the new machine too.. but some things are falling behind me with some busy times occurring.
Fine examples DEZ - really show some good ways to involve the feature, and why to do so ! Thanks - but I wouldn't go that far... just experimenting as I don't use a DAW and this is new, unchartered territory. Still to learn how to side add things !
After further testing I see that only the instrument itself is passed as an FX. Any other settings like Reverb, etc is not. This is good as these things can be set independently in your DAW. The use of body/string resonance is there to add extra flavour to your soundscape...
After further testing I see that only the instrument itself is passed as an FX. Any other settings like Reverb, etc is not. This is good as these things can be set independently in your DAW. The use of body/string resonance is there to add extra flavour to your soundscape...
Very odd. Over here, in Reaper, I can apply any of the Pianoteq effects to the audio input. It looks like, as well as the sympathetic resonance, I can also use Pianoteq as a reverb unit, EQ, distortion (amp effect), etc. Of course you can turn those things off if you don't want them.
I appreciate this thread as I've just started using Pianoteq with GigPerformer (as a live performance VST) and I was experimenting with the audio input feature but found it hard to understand what was happening exactly and how to control what is happening and really... what is the use case for this?
I was considering if this feature could in fact act as the effects chain for my other VSTs, which is what @hanysz also seemed to be suggesting. I think the clearest explanation is what @Qexl brought up wtih your mental image example, as if it's a resonator minus the source sound passing though the plugin.
But there are idiosyncracys to this. Here's my observations, paraphrased from my post over on GigPerformer's forum:
The room mic levels affect the output (or is it input? hard to tell) of these inputs to the effects chain (or from them) but not the room mic configuations or how many of them are active, so it’s not a proximity effect, the mic levels are just acting as a gain stage. This is odd.
In the effects themselves, everything is only additive, so there is no ‘dry’ there is only more wet and the overall FX gain stage has no effect in negative values, it can only boost the effects signal of this input.
So where, aside from adding a gain stage between the incomming VST and Pianoteq, is there control for how these audio inputs are being mixed or is this just a route wtih no control independent of Pianoteq’s own sounds?
I was thinking about if it would be useful and simplified to use pianoteq’s effects chain as a catch all for my other e.piano/clav/FM-EP type sounds so even if I were blocking midi note on msg to pianoteq, it was the master effects chain making it a single point of adjustment for all my keyboard sounds.
But are there sympathetic overtones if say I was playing a Pianoteq piano while also treating the output of another VST by running it through Pianoteq... are these sounds now just mixed or is there a physical modeled interaction between them? I can't tell.
Curious if anyone else has tried these ideas with any success?
p.s.
What is missing from Pianoteq, unless I am just not seeing it, is while it has 5 assignable outs, they are strictly for the microphone matrix and what would be really useful is if you could assign two of those optinally as the effects return which would make outputs 1-2 dry by default.
Very odd. Over here, in Reaper, I can apply any of the Pianoteq effects to the audio input. It looks like, as well as the sympathetic resonance, I can also use Pianoteq as a reverb unit, EQ, distortion (amp effect), etc. Of course you can turn those things off if you don't want them.
You are correct! I made a mistake...
FURTHER EXPERIMENTATION...
Using Bome MIDI Translator Pro:
External Keyboard is routed to two channels (1 & 2). CH1 is unfiltered; CH2 has the note-on velocity set to 1
Cakewalk has two instrument tracks MG1 reading CH1 and PianoTeq 8 reading CH2
MG1 has Pianoteq Audio FX applied
PianoTeq 8 has midi out to MG1's Audio FX
PianoTeq 8 and MG1's FX are set to same Piano setting - I didn't need to use PianoTeq 8 as second midi but used it to hear and set paramaters for FX - any changes were copied over the AudioFX instrument.
By allowing midi to pass to the AudioFX on MG1 I can lift the dampers for the notes I play only.
Here is the MG1 minus FX
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...dio%29.mp3
Here is the MG1 with FX - Straight (no lifting of dampers)
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...dio%29.mp3
Here is the MG1 with dampers lifted for each individual note played - you will be able to clearly hear the difference on the last note as the key is held down...
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...dio%29.mp3
Why do this? You can add piano noises like hammers, dampers as well as allow individual strings to resonate or the whole 88 notes with the sustain pedal down... le monde vous appartient!
Part 1
My simple arrangement of "An English Country Garden" by Thomas Walker (1728) mixed in a DAW (Cakewalk) using P8 U4 piano and straight square wave.
Here's what it sound like:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Garden.mp3
TO FOLLOW... remixed using Audio FX from U4 (run out of time)
Part 2
NOW FOLLOWING... remixed using Audio FX from U4:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...onance.mp3
The piano track was duplicated - velocity set to 1 and this was fed to the P8 Audio FX send on the synth track.
EXTRA
Two midi tracks - one for Polymode Synth, t'other for Polymode Synth Audio FX (P8 Virgil)
One instrument track - Polymode Synth with PianoTeq 8 Virgil audio effect send...
And here's what it sounds like...
AGAIN
Two midi tracks - one for Polymode Synth, t'other for Polymode Synth Audio FX (P8 J Schantz)
One instrument track - Polymode Synth with PianoTeq 8 J Schantz audio effect send...
And here's what it sounds like...
YET AGAIN...
Two midi tracks - one for Polymode Synth, t'other for Polymode Synth Audio FX (P8 C Bechstein)
One instrument track - Polymode Synth with PianoTeq 8 C Bechstein audio effect send...
And here's what it sounds like...
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Fellow.mp3
Opps - added the wrong file!
WHAT CAN I SAY...
Two midi tracks - one for Polymode Synth, t'other for Polymode Synth Audio FX (P8 Bluethner)
One instrument track - Polymode Synth with PianoTeq 8 Bluethner audio effect send...
And here's what it sounds like...