Topic: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

I would like a MIDI controller for dual use: (a) with Pianoteq for a piano playing experience and (b) for music composition in a DAW.

I wanted to avoid getting a product with built in sounds and speakers, because then it would become a "pay more to get better samples and speakers" situation.

I just bought a Roland A-88 MK2 for (converted) 1360 USD. That is what it costs in my country new in stores.

I was thinking that if I pay more for something without sound, it will get me a more accurate playing experience.

Unfortunately I didn't do my due research and I've discovered it has the same keybed as the much cheaper FP10. So it seems I'm paying double just to get some buttons and knobs, and continuous pedal support.

Did I make a mistake?

The market for pianos without any sound is probably quite small, so it's challenging to find what to buy.

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

concorde wrote:

I would like a MIDI controller for dual use: (a) with Pianoteq for a piano playing experience and (b) for music composition in a DAW.

I wanted to avoid getting a product with built in sounds and speakers, because then it would become a "pay more to get better samples and speakers" situation.

I just bought a Roland A-88 MK2 for (converted) 1360 USD. That is what it costs in my country new in stores.

I was thinking that if I pay more for something without sound, it will get me a more accurate playing experience.

Unfortunately I didn't do my due research and I've discovered it has the same keybed as the much cheaper FP10. So it seems I'm paying double just to get some buttons and knobs, and continuous pedal support.

Did I make a mistake?

The market for pianos without any sound is probably quite small, so it's challenging to find what to buy.

It is worth being cynical about targeted pricing. Companies aren't only benevolent suppliers of hardware, they also price similar products to different price points depending on on what they think that particular part of the market will tolerate.

Thanks for informing us that FP-10 has the same mechanism as the A88 mkii.  Actually I think I might have heard this before and forgot it!
We were discussing the a88 Mark ii in another thread. People are always looking for the next step up. Or an affordable new piano when theirs starts to get worn out.

I believe the market for digital pianos vs high end hammer action MIDI controllers is much much bigger, so we have to consider economies of scale, and serious competition. The drive units, amplification and DSP chipset are relatively cheap components in a digital piano (to the manufacturer).
I'm thinking PCB surface mount component filled boards and drive units that cost pence rather than pounds to the manufacturer (or buy in) at that scale, and no I'm not joking, the labour fitting them will be the most expensive part of the equation, along with storage and shipping. 


Even so if you want in the future to order any replacement parts or get an engineer to repair it for you you'll find yourself paying hundreds of pounds most likely.

Owing to the economies of scale and the sales model and competition I would expect most digital pianos to have much tighter margins. So it's not as simple as you were thinking.

A88 mkii has MIDI 2.0 if that's of interest?

Last edited by Key Fumbler (24-08-2022 10:23)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Thank you for your reply.

My A-88 MK2 arrived. I have been playing with it in Pianoteq. It's the first time I've used a MIDI controller with Pianoteq.

I have it plugged in via USB. USB-C at the unit, and USB-A at the computer, using the supplied cable.

I quickly noticed that when I play, even if I have my speakers loud enough to fill a medium size room with very loud music, Pianoteq is way too quiet. This is with the velocity curve on Pianoteq set to default/linear and the Roland A-88 MK2 velocity curve set to Medium (3/6). Volume in Pianoteq is set to default of 0dB and Dynamics in Pianoteq is set to default of 40dB.

I notice I can't play one note many times in a row really fast - it is like some MIDI messages are not being posted when I do this. Hopefully that makes sense. It feels a bit . . . sluggish. Hard for me to describe.
I have updated my A-88 MK2 firmware to the latest firmware.

It would be great to get some help on (a) the volume and (b) MIDI consistency/continuity.

It is a bit alarming that I'm having these issues.

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Have you ever used an acoustic piano?

Are you talking about fast trilling on a single key?

So far as I can ascertain from the information on this forum generally speaking if you want the nice graded hammer action keyboard then fast trilling on a single note is more the preserve of the most expensive options, which does seem too expensive; there is a hole in the market I believe built around complacency about the upgrade path. A Chinese manufacturer may come along and plug it if the main players aren't careful. I am surprised there aren't more engineers trying to crack that one.

Fast trilling seems to be beyond even the high quality option that you have picked.

Otherwise you might be talking about latency issues - or a combination.

The quietness is another concern. That sounds like a technical issue. That said there might possibly be a technique issue- hammer action requires a bit more oomph. Ultimately this also gives it greater usable range than synth or semi-weighted action.

What happens when you use other piano VSTs?
Same again?

Also I suppose there's a possibility that there is a volume control on the keyboard telling pianoteq to turn the volume down.
I suggest reading the manual troubleshooting thoroughly.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (31-08-2022 11:01)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

In my opinion most dedicated piano controllers are overpriced compared to digital Pianos in a given price range.

The price of the A-88 is ridiculous. It has the same action as the FP-10 and FP-30X.
The rest of the features are neglectable (for me):
Pitch and mod joystick: useless for me.
DAW controllers: don't need them.
Midi 2.0: not necessarily.

For all these reasons I went with the FP-30.
It has the PHA-4 keyboard. It has continuous pedals. It's cheaper. That's it.
I consider the speakers and the sound engine as a bonus.

Regarding your issues:
A. Do you mean volume or velocity?
B. Have you installed the latest windows/Mac drivers from the Roland site?

"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes."

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Zaskar wrote:

In my opinion most dedicated piano controllers are overpriced compared to digital Pianos in a given price range.

Yes, he should check the drivers. Along with the volume control. He may have to produce custom velocity curves of course. There is always the possibility he's got a faulty unit too.

Indeed.  Economies of scale in favour of digital pianos and the general lack of competition amongst graded hammer action MIDI controllers.

As we can see from the video done at Woody's piano shack the build quality of the A88 mkii is a grade or two above the entry-level pianos with the same action, but I know where my money would go, unless I was a touring musician I would take the cheaper plastics and just handle a cheaper digital piano a bit more carefully - then again it wouldn't get moved about much anyway.

There is a pride of ownership in owning nicely made things though. That shouldn't be underestimated. Better quality finish and solid build counts for a lot - when you've got the option to afford it.

MIDI 2.0 high resolution midi hmm, I'm not convinced high resolution would be perceptible in blind testing.  The results of an improved mechanical key action on the other hand, including the fine resolution of light sensors (on other keyboards) could make all the difference, but 127 steps on a single piano key mechanism is already capable of differentiating miniscule velocity differences of a fraction of a decimal (which we can't even perceive), even with lossy velocity curves taken into account.
Add to that the blurring of the margins by playing many notes together.
That said it's one of those things that I think it would be nice to have just to say this is the 21st century, the keyboard can do it anyway.

In a nutshell I believe the qualitative difference is almost certainly entirely in the electromechanical realm not digital resolution.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (31-08-2022 13:41)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

People tend to agree that the velocity curves of the FP-10, FP-30(X) and FP-60(X), which share the same action, work very well with PTQ right out of the box. Keep PTQs curve linear and you should be good to go. Therefore there are no custom curves available in the download area because it just works. I'm curious if Roland changed anything with the A-88.

"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes."

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

When I play music, say in iTunes, at a loud volume, the same volume level is not nearly loud enough for Pianoteq, or other VST's.

But the keyboard is posting correct velocities - it has no problem reaching 127/127 in Pocket Midi monitor, or Pianoteq monitor.

--

As for the A-88, if I do replace it with something else, then what would you recommend for around 1360 USD ? It could be a digital piano. I just want something with build quality and good keybed, and without gimmicks.

Last edited by concorde (01-09-2022 08:17)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

concorde wrote:

...what would you recommend for around 1360 USD ?

If you really want to go with a controller only solution then you could buy a Kawai VPC1.
It's currently around 1300 USD. It doesn't get more puristic and it's considered one of the best
piano controllers out there.

Last edited by Zaskar (01-09-2022 09:15)
"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes."

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Unfortunately the VPC1 is nearly 2000 USD new here haha. I think it's out of the question.

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

If I already had that Roland I would at very least want to make sure it is working as well as possible. If you're going to swap it you're going to want to know what the best of the competition can do.

Out of curiosity a few days back I looked at the technical specifications of all the keyboards on Roland's website. I was surprised to see that indeed they use the same action on all the "slab" type keyboards, bar the very top of the range model - just one gets something better (and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be some people who actually prefer your action).
Roland obviously have a lot of faith in that action. That's one way of looking at it.

Roland's Piano Hammer Action Four is discussed against the top of the range actions used on the top Clavinova pianos here:
https://youtu.be/s7NqNrd3Ap8

Note the break in period for PHA-4 keyboard mechanism

Last edited by Key Fumbler (01-09-2022 09:53)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Zaskar wrote:
concorde wrote:

...what would you recommend for around 1360 USD ?

If you really want to go with a controller only solution then you could buy a Kawai VPC1.
It's currently around 1300 USD. It doesn't get more puristic and it's considered one of the best
piano controllers out there.

I was considering the VPC1 for use with PTQ, but this thread -- https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886 -- gave me some doubts.

Do you think the FP10 / FP30x would be OK with regard to the issues discussed there?

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Key Fumbler wrote:

If I already had that Roland I would at very least want to make sure it is working as well as possible. If you're going to swap it you're going to want to know what the best of the competition can do.

Out of curiosity a few days back I looked at the technical specifications of all the keyboards on Roland's website. I was surprised to see that indeed they use the same action on all the "slab" type keyboards, bar the very top of the range model - just one gets something better (and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be some people who actually prefer your action).
Roland obviously have a lot of faith in that action. That's one way of looking at it.

Roland's Piano Hammer Action Four is discussed against the top of the range actions used on the top Clavinova pianos here:
https://youtu.be/s7NqNrd3Ap8

Note the break in period for PHA-4 keyboard mechanism

Stu  from Merriam, regularly plays the FP 60x, which has the PHA4 action/keyboard. I love his reviews. So indepth and trustworthy.

Last edited by BarbaraRB (02-09-2022 03:12)

Re: Keyboard controller for Pianoteq and music production

Quick update.

Thanks for everyone's input.

I'm most likely going to keep the A-88 MK2. It's great to play on. I just have to turn my speakers or headphones up a lot to hear virtual instruments like Pianoteq. I presume it's a normal thing.

I could have spent less for the same keybed, but I do think I'll get some use out of the DAW controls. This product is probably overpriced based on the keybed not being "premium", but oh well, I still like the product.