Topic by dubc

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Topic: Keyboard advice for new user

Hello everyone, I've searched and found many great answers to my questions by forum users but 2 answers elude me.

1. Velocity Curves for my midi controller https://nektartech.com/se49-se61-midi-c...-keyboard/ - I don't understand much about this apart from that velocity is the response in the DAW depending on the force that a finger hits each key. So it's a DAW setting and possibly a keyboard setting also...and have started reading the user contributions about it but when I play in pianoteq 6 it sounds very synthetic and not like the demo's.

Yes, this is a entry level midi keyboard.No aftertough. No weighted keys. It plays terribly compared to my real upright piano but it was a birthday present a few years ago so I can't complain. I will use it for recording only so maybe the velocity curve adjustment can suffice??? Maybe I am delusional... please help ;-)

2. I have seen some threads on keyboard options for great weighted key experience. I am looking to spend only $200USD max on a second hand one. The reasons are because I will only be using it to record and not to practice/composing(my real piano is for that) so I don't think I will be crying too much if this is an impossible request and I am stuck with the SE49.

Thanks in advance.
DubC

Last edited by dubc (07-08-2022 05:26)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

I would suggest that you don't use that synth action keyboard as your main keyboard, but keep it instead for playing multiple keyboards at the same time. We now have layering and morphing.

I think you understand already the velocity response is key to performance. Custom velocity curves can only do so much when you can very easily trigger maximum velocity with synth action.   Custom velocity curves help more in the other direction - if it's hard to trigger the highest velocities.

Also you can effectively block the high velocity data to only get a polite dynamically limited  sound. This is not ideal but might be fine in a multiple sound instance with layering.

Have a look what graded hammer action second-hand keyboards you can get. I would suggest you don't buy anything too old, rather go for an entry-level Casio graded hammer action. Something along those lines anyway.

Reply by dubc

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:

I would suggest that you don't use that synth action keyboard as your main keyboard, but keep it instead for playing multiple keyboards at the same time. We now have layering and morphing.

I think you understand already the velocity response is key to performance. Custom velocity curves can only do so much when you can very easily trigger maximum velocity with synth action.   Custom velocity curves help more in the other direction - if it's hard to trigger the highest velocities.

Also you can effectively block the high velocity data to only get a polite dynamically limited  sound. This is not ideal but might be fine in a multiple sound instance with layering.

Have a look what graded hammer action second-hand keyboards you can get. I would suggest you don't buy anything too old, rather go for an entry-level Casio graded hammer action. Something along those lines anyway.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree 100%. I researched all afternoon and just bought a Casio Privia PX-110 https://www.casio-europe.com/euro/produ...es/px-110/ for sale near me. $240 USD. It is in mint condition and rarely used by an old man with one eye... seriously a good bargain. It plays great but I am unable to hook it up to my DAW and test yet as I'm not home for a few days yet.

Velocity Curves: Someone has already done the heavy liftingbut not the exact model. https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=2857

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

dubc wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

I would suggest that you don't use that synth action keyboard as your main keyboard, but keep it instead for playing multiple keyboards at the same time. We now have layering and morphing.

I think you understand already the velocity response is key to performance. Custom velocity curves can only do so much when you can very easily trigger maximum velocity with synth action.   Custom velocity curves help more in the other direction - if it's hard to trigger the highest velocities.

Also you can effectively block the high velocity data to only get a polite dynamically limited  sound. This is not ideal but might be fine in a multiple sound instance with layering.

Have a look what graded hammer action second-hand keyboards you can get. I would suggest you don't buy anything too old, rather go for an entry-level Casio graded hammer action. Something along those lines anyway.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree 100%. I researched all afternoon and just bought a Casio Privia PX-110 https://www.casio-europe.com/euro/produ...es/px-110/ for sale near me. $240 USD. It is in mint condition and rarely used by an old man with one eye... seriously a good bargain. It plays great but I am unable to hook it up to my DAW and test yet as I'm not home for a few days yet.

Velocity Curves: Someone has already done the heavy liftingbut not the exact model. https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=2857

Sounds like a good choice. :)

I have experimented with other people's velocity curves with an entry level Casio, and my own adjustments.  For some odd reason I couldn't improve on the straight velocity curve that the keyboard comes with. I find adjustments to the velocity curves very useful when using layering though where my other keyboards have different actions. Actually when layering I have to make multiple changes to make the layers workable.
I only have the one basic hammer action Casio keyboard, the rest have different synth actions - the synth actions vary wildly too.

Reply by dubc

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:

I have experimented with other people's velocity curves with an entry level Casio, and my own adjustments.  For some odd reason I couldn't improve on the straight velocity curve that the keyboard comes with. I find adjustments to the velocity curves very useful when using layering though where my other keyboards have different actions.


That sounds reasonable. I will at least learn something whilst making adjustments.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Actually when layering I have to make multiple changes to make the layers workable.
I only have the one basic hammer action Casio keyboard, the rest have different synth actions - the synth actions vary wildly too.

That sounds like fun. Im looking forward to layer fun.

What's your Casio? Hard to tell from the avatar.

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

dubc wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

I have experimented with other people's velocity curves with an entry level Casio, and my own adjustments.  For some odd reason I couldn't improve on the straight velocity curve that the keyboard comes with. I find adjustments to the velocity curves very useful when using layering though where my other keyboards have different actions.


That sounds reasonable. I will at least learn something whilst making adjustments.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Actually when layering I have to make multiple changes to make the layers workable.
I only have the one basic hammer action Casio keyboard, the rest have different synth actions - the synth actions vary wildly too.

That sounds like fun. Im looking forward to layer fun.

What's your Casio? Hard to tell from the avatar.

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

CDP-130 - as I said entry level stuff.

Reply by dubc

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

ooh - I have no idea hahah. I am far and away from being knowledgeable in this piano domain.

Key Fumbler wrote:

CDP-130 - as I said entry level stuff.

That looks just like my new Privia. Same stand also. Good units all of these!!!

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

dubc wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

ooh - I have no idea hahah. I am far and away from being knowledgeable in this piano domain.

Key Fumbler wrote:

CDP-130 - as I said entry level stuff.

That looks just like my new Privia. Same stand also. Good units all of these!!!

They are good value for money. That's the economies of scale.

The Rhodes electric tine based piano models are pretty darned good in Pianoteq. It pays to tweak the presets though. Classic 70s to early 80s sound.
There is also the CP80/CP70 which you get free in KIVIR.  That's the crystalline piano sound on many late 70s to early -mid 80s tracks (and Keane), especially prog rock and Peter Gabriel (peter gabriel to fans).

https://youtu.be/7dng84YVcm0

Last edited by Key Fumbler (08-08-2022 14:25)

Reply by brundlefly

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

My $.02 on velocity curves:

Before you make any changes, find your initially most-preferred preset and play it for at least an hour or two with a linear velocity curve. If you find you're having difficulty getting pianissimo or fortissimo loudness or the response to increasing/decreasing physical velocity does not seem proportional in some range(s), then you should consider adjusting the dynamic range setting of the preset and/or changing the velocity curve, in that order.

My first impression of most Pianoteq presets is that the dynmic range is too low, making it difficult to play pianissimo when Pianoteq's volume and monitoring levels are set to give a satisfyingly loud response to fortissimo playing. As I recall, a lot of presets have the dynamic range set between 35 and 40dB, wheras I typically find something in the 50-60dB range to be closer to the response of other software and hardware digital pianos and my real Yamaha G5.

So start by setting your monitoring level for maximum loudness and adjusting the dynamic range in Pianoteq to get the desired Pianissom level. Then play some more, and see if you still feel the velocity reponse is not smoothly and predictably progressive in the way you expect across the full range of physical dynamics. If so, have a look at what other users have proposed and see if any of those curves approximates your sense of where the curve needs to higher/lower/shallower/steeper.

If you find something that looks right, that might be a good starting point for find the curve that's ideal for you. keeping in mind that those other users were almost certainly playing a different preset with different dynamic range with different monitoring system and levels and - maybe most importantly - diffferent technique, style and skill.  When in doubt, follow your own instincts rather than trusting that someone else's conclusion is somehow more authoritative and applicable to your monitoring setup and playing style.

Last edited by brundlefly (12-08-2022 20:02)

Reply by dubc

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

The Rhodes electric tine based piano models are pretty darned good in Pianoteq. It pays to tweak the presets though. Classic 70s to early 80s sound.
There is also the CP80/CP70 which you get free in KIVIR.  That's the crystalline piano sound on many late 70s to early -mid 80s tracks (and Keane), especially prog rock and Peter Gabriel (peter gabriel to fans).

Ah yeah - it looks high quality also. Interesting, Ill make note of that.

brundlefly wrote:

My $.02 on velocity curves:

Before you make any changes, find your initially most-preferred preset and play it for at least an hour or two with a linear velocity curve. If you find you're having difficulty getting pianissimo or fortissimo loudness or the response to increasing/decreasing physical velocity does not seem proportional in some range(s), then you should consider adjusting the dynamic range setting of the preset and/or changing the velocity curve, in that order.

Thanks for your very clear tips. I'll be doing this over the next week as I'm waiting on a midi cable to arrive in the mail and we just had our 3rd baby so have been time poor due to that.

Regarding the fast playing - My song style doesn't require it so potentially I will not hit any issues with it. Can't wait to try it out though.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

dubc wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

Ah yeah - it looks high quality also. Interesting, Ill make note of that.

That avatar is a Mk1 Rhodes. A classic American electric piano.

Rhodes is back and manufactured in Leeds UK!:
https://rhodesmusic.com/

Now with a keyboard action from a Steinway company. This version ain't exactly priced to be cheap 'n' cheerful, but then there's little point as it's replicated so well in the virtual realm, may as well go for the premium customers. Hopefully they will be able to ride out the current world financial situation.
People with that kind of money are usually pretty much immune.

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:
dubc wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Ha ha, I wish I had the keyboard in the avatar, that's a Rhodes piano, a stock avatar on this site.

ooh - I have no idea hahah. I am far and away from being knowledgeable in this piano domain.

Key Fumbler wrote:

CDP-130 - as I said entry level stuff.

That looks just like my new Privia. Same stand also. Good units all of these!!!

They are good value for money. That's the economies of scale.

The Rhodes electric tine based piano models are pretty darned good in Pianoteq. It pays to tweak the presets though. Classic 70s to early 80s sound.
There is also the CP80/CP70 which you get free in KIVIR.  That's the crystalline piano sound on many late 70s to early -mid 80s tracks (and Keane), especially prog rock and Peter Gabriel (peter gabriel to fans).

https://youtu.be/7dng84YVcm0

I just listened to the CP80 in KiViR.  What an amazing piano!  For some reason, I never listened to it before, and it is gorgeous.  I like to play songs that I listened to in decades past, and this will be perfect for many of them.  Just glorious!

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
dubc wrote:

ooh - I have no idea hahah. I am far and away from being knowledgeable in this piano domain.



That looks just like my new Privia. Same stand also. Good units all of these!!!

They are good value for money. That's the economies of scale.

The Rhodes electric tine based piano models are pretty darned good in Pianoteq. It pays to tweak the presets though. Classic 70s to early 80s sound.
There is also the CP80/CP70 which you get free in KIVIR.  That's the crystalline piano sound on many late 70s to early -mid 80s tracks (and Keane), especially prog rock and Peter Gabriel (peter gabriel to fans).

https://youtu.be/7dng84YVcm0

I just listened to the CP80 in KiViR.  What an amazing piano!  For some reason, I never listened to it before, and it is gorgeous.  I like to play songs that I listened to in decades past, and this will be perfect for many of them.  Just glorious!

Yes I like it along with the Rhodes (tine piano)and Clavinet, and to a lesser extent the Wurly (reed piano).

The CP80 modelling works for me especially after a bit of EQ tweaking.

Yamaha CP70 was very popular too. Kawai made a similar electric grand or two too. Kawai EP-308 was their big model.
CP70/80 probably got there first and were more famous.

Kawai also made an upright electric 608:
https://youtu.be/9nfiTj-AN2o

Classic CP70/80 + chorus piano track
https://youtu.be/G0GcqYGv1AA

I think an electroacoustic/grand pack could be welcome to add to the electrics.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (18-08-2022 17:40)

Reply by BarbaraRB

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Key Fumbler wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

They are good value for money. That's the economies of scale.

The Rhodes electric tine based piano models are pretty darned good in Pianoteq. It pays to tweak the presets though. Classic 70s to early 80s sound.
There is also the CP80/CP70 which you get free in KIVIR.  That's the crystalline piano sound on many late 70s to early -mid 80s tracks (and Keane), especially prog rock and Peter Gabriel (peter gabriel to fans).

https://youtu.be/7dng84YVcm0

I just listened to the CP80 in KiViR.  What an amazing piano!  For some reason, I never listened to it before, and it is gorgeous.  I like to play songs that I listened to in decades past, and this will be perfect for many of them.  Just glorious!

Yes I like it along with the Rhodes (tine piano)and Clavinet, and to a lesser extent the Wurly (reed piano).

The CP80 modelling works for me especially after a bit of EQ tweaking.

Yamaha CP70 was very popular too. Kawai made a similar electric grand or two too. Kawai EP-308 was their big model.
CP70/80 probably got there first and were more famous.

Kawai also made an upright electric 608:
https://youtu.be/9nfiTj-AN2o

Classic CP70/80 + chorus piano track
https://youtu.be/G0GcqYGv1AA

I think an electroacoustic/grand pack could be welcome to add to the electrics.

The Peter Gabriel piece is beautiful.  Thanks for sharing it.  I'll have to listen to more of his music.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

BarbaraRB wrote:

The Peter Gabriel piece is beautiful.  Thanks for sharing it.  I'll have to listen to more of his music.

In that case I suggest listening to the album "So"

Reply by groovy

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

Aha moment, after I followed a link next to "Here comes the Flood"

https://youtu.be/vd4aaoLE5co

My whole life I thought a sequencer was used on "The lamb lies down on broadway" (heard it countless times), and now I saw it has been the legendary CP70/80 E-Piano!

Thank you very much for that discovery, Key Fumbler!

PS: The double album "The lamb lies down on broadway" by Genesis/Peter Gabriel 1974 is an outstanding masterpiece!

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Re: Keyboard advice for new user

groovy wrote:

Aha moment, after I followed a link next to "Here comes the Flood"

https://youtu.be/vd4aaoLE5co

My whole life I thought a sequencer was used on "The lamb lies down on broadway" (heard it countless times), and now I saw it has been the legendary CP70/80 E-Piano!

Thank you very much for that discovery, Key Fumbler!

PS: The double album "The lamb lies down on broadway" by Genesis/Peter Gabriel 1974 is an outstanding masterpiece!

Cheers for the link, he looks and acts very differently there. I don't think YouTube selected that follow up video for me.
I've not seen that before.

Peter Gabriel's solo performance there almost comes over as a punk performance. I wonder if he influenced Holly Johnson there too? - though not a comparison he may find flattering!

The lamb lies down on Broadway is a classic  album. To my shame I don't think I have got a copy. A friend of mine was a bit obsessed with it.