Topic: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

Hey everyone!

First post here. I'm a piano-oriented hobby singer/songwriter and composer looking to upgrade my setup with an 88-key stage piano that will also serve as a MIDI controller at my workstation (using Ableton Live and Cubase). My budget is up to 1200 USD. Of course my piano VST of choice is Pianoteq and I'd like a keyboard that makes good use of the expressive range that it offers.

At first, I was including 88-key MIDI controllers with no built-in sound, and had narrowed it down to the Studiologic SL88 Grand, Roland A-88 MKII, or Roland FP30X, based on key feel after trying them out in the store. (Some contenders that I ruled out based on the feel were the Arturia Keylab 88 MKII, Native Instruments S88 MKII, M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, Roland FP90X and Kawai VPC1). The key action is the most important thing to me since I want to record a lot of piano-centric pieces in a neoclassical or hybrid cinematic vein, and I am used to playing acoustic piano.

After further consideration, I decided it would suit me better to get something that has onboard sound and can be used to get my toes wet with the occasional gig, jamming with friends, etc, as well. I don't have the space nor the money to have multiple types of 88-key keyboards, so it should be something that can easily be moved onto/off of my computer desk as needed.

Here are my must-haves:
- 88 hammer action weighted keys
- Onboard sounds
- Can be used as MIDI controller with a DAW
- Supports continuous pedaling (full range of pedaling, not on/off or on/half/off)
- Not too difficult to transport by one person

These would be nice to have:
- Onboard speakers or battery power
- Ivory feel keys (not totally smooth)
- Escapement
- Useful controls for working in my DAW
- Transmits note-off velocity

So after more research I've created a short list of possibilities and it would be great to get some input as to how well each one might fit my requirements, or if there's something else that comes to mind:

- Roland RD-88
- Roland FP30X
- Roland Juno DS88
- Korg Kross 2-88MB
- Korg Krome EX 88

Thanks in advance for reading and your help!

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

Hi! Keybeds are VERY subjective, but you basically have the Roland PHA-4 covered with your first three. It seems that you don't like the (supposedly higher tier) Roland PHA-50 action, which is interesting, but might track to other manufacturers too (similarly, you didn't like Kawai's flagship action).

I kinda agree with you on Roland ... and in a recent visit to Guitar Center I actually found myself liking Yamaha's actions better than Roland's for piano playing. In the Yamaha world, you have (among others) the GHS action (e.g. on the P-125) and the GH3 action (e.g. on the P-515). Try them both if you can; I suspect you might actually like the P-125 better. I thought it had a nice feel. Also, the Yamahas sample their CFIIIS concert grand which is significantly more satisfying than Roland's attempts at piano sound (at least to me).

I never liked the feel of Korg's keybeds but some people love them -- just be sure you try them (if you can!). To me, their action feels "thick."

Casio's action is not to be overlooked, incidentally. It's surprisingly good. You may or may not like it. Most people seem to think they sample the Hamburg Steinway.

Finally -- and on a personal note -- I have a Kawai MP7 which I've been playing for a number of years and it's been a delight. The current model is the MP7SE which is beloved. If you can try one out, it would be worth a test-drive. It's a fun keyboard to use with Pianoteq and is the only way I know of to play a sampled SK or EX or SK-EX

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

dcitron wrote:

Hi! Keybeds are VERY subjective......

Finally -- and on a personal note -- I have a Kawai MP7 which I've been playing for a number of years and it's been a delight. The current model is the MP7SE which is beloved. If you can try one out, it would be worth a test-drive....

Yes, very subjective. I liked and still do my Kawai EP3. As I gather, it is a Fatar/StudioLogic keyboard. I think the same as the MP but for the wood keys.

I've tried the light weight digital pianos like the Yamaha 115 that I had and Casios but quickly disliked them but for their portability. Then I found a Numa Stage piano with what seems to be the same keyboard as the SL88. Not quite like the Kawai but pretty good for a 25 lb instrument. And it has basic stage piano sounds that came in handy on the occasions which I forgot to bring a USB cable to the gig.

My humble advice, get the $500 StudioLogic (SL88 I think) and put the rest of the $ to creative uses.

Last edited by MidiOpera (19-02-2022 17:26)
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera.com

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

MidiOpera wrote:

My humble advice, get the $500 StudioLogic (SL88 I think) and put the rest of the $ to creative uses.

One thing to be careful of:

  • StudioLogic SL88 Grand: Fatar TP-40W (most people like this keybed)

  • StudioLogic SL88 Studio: Fatar TP-100/LR (most people hate this keybed)

  • Kawai MP7SE: Kawai's own Responsive Hammer III keyboard (unrelated in any way to Fatar)

See also https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=5536 for some notes on the StudioLogic keyboards.

If possible, you should try both the SL/Fatar boards and the Kawai one.

A final wrinkle -- different manufacturers can use what is nominally the same Fatar keybed but due to unpublished custom tweaks (such as replacing the springs) the final "feel" can be quite different!

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

As mentioned, one's preferences regarding keyboards probably tends to be fairly subjective. To add my opinion, after trying a variety of popular and common keyboards and brands, I am fairly happy with the action of my Kawai MP11SE.

I'm curious about the Casio with the Bechstein keyboard action though--

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (21-02-2022 00:15)
--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

FuzzyBrain wrote:

After further consideration, I decided it would suit me better to get something that has onboard sound and can be used to get my toes wet with the occasional gig, jamming with friends, etc, as well. I don't have the space nor the money to have multiple types of 88-key keyboards, so it should be something that can easily be moved onto/off of my computer desk as needed.

A side note, which may or may not be useful.
It was a conundrum how to have both the piano and the computer available, either together or separately. My solution was to modify my desk. When I use the computer alone the piano is underneath the desk and the mouse and keyboard on top. When I use Pianoteq I slide the desk top back revealing the keyboard. The Hercules piano bench KB200B was a great buy. It's comfortable and sturdy, has 4 height positions plus an adjuster wheel, and can be folded. If I'm feeling ergonomic I raise the bench up one click for typing, and back down one for playing.

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

Greetings fellow humans:


Also in decision mode.

Which board unlocks all the fixn's that the pianoteq engine reads?

From what I've read so far, it reads triple sensor,  continuous pedal,  and note-off velocity. Is that the whole list or are there others.

Do you guys happen to know if the RHC2 with the triple sensor in the ES520 or KDP120 can do all that including note-off?  I ask because I was going to get the fp30x but it's too stiff compared to my acoustic.

Last edited by JohnTate (26-02-2022 00:52)

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

A Roland RD-2000 might take full advantage of all the available potential of PIANOTEQ, since in addition to note-off velocities the keyboard can transmit HiRes MIDI messages to the software.  Probably few portable keyboards offer any form of HiRes MIDI capability coupled with variable note-off velocities, all of which found by a piano coming with both a large price tag and cabinet like that of a YAMAHA Disklavier or any of the ROLAND LX-700 Series.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (04-03-2022 06:03)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

A Roland RD-2000 might take full advantage of all the available potential of PIANOTEQ, since in addition to note-off velocities the keyboard can transmit HiRes MIDI messages to the software.  Probably few portable keyboards offer any form of HiRes MIDI capability coupled with variable note-off velocities, all of which found by a piano coming with both a large price tag and cabinet like that of a YAMAHA Disklavier or any of the ROLAND LX-700 Series.

Roland's actions are too stiff for me. Which is why I'm kind of stuck looking at kawai es520, since no one has vouched for its behavior on pianoteq, I'm blind on it, and they're not available at the store...

If it was for midi features alone, I'm already convinced roland's got it locked down.

Last edited by JohnTate (04-03-2022 17:43)

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

FuzzyBrain wrote:

Hey everyone!

First post here. I'm a piano-oriented hobby singer/songwriter and composer looking to upgrade my setup with an 88-key stage piano that will also serve as a MIDI controller at my workstation (using Ableton Live and Cubase). My budget is up to 1200 USD. Of course my piano VST of choice is Pianoteq and I'd like a keyboard that makes good use of the expressive range that it offers.

At first, I was including 88-key MIDI controllers with no built-in sound, and had narrowed it down to the Studiologic SL88 Grand, Roland A-88 MKII, or Roland FP30X, based on key feel after trying them out in the store. (Some contenders that I ruled out based on the feel were the Arturia Keylab 88 MKII, Native Instruments S88 MKII, M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, Roland FP90X and Kawai VPC1). The key action is the most important thing to me since I want to record a lot of piano-centric pieces in a neoclassical or hybrid cinematic vein, and I am used to playing acoustic piano.

After further consideration, I decided it would suit me better to get something that has onboard sound and can be used to get my toes wet with the occasional gig, jamming with friends, etc, as well. I don't have the space nor the money to have multiple types of 88-key keyboards, so it should be something that can easily be moved onto/off of my computer desk as needed.

Here are my must-haves:
- 88 hammer action weighted keys
- Onboard sounds
- Can be used as MIDI controller with a DAW
- Supports continuous pedaling (full range of pedaling, not on/off or on/half/off)
- Not too difficult to transport by one person

These would be nice to have:
- Onboard speakers or battery power
- Ivory feel keys (not totally smooth)
- Escapement
- Useful controls for working in my DAW
- Transmits note-off velocity

So after more research I've created a short list of possibilities and it would be great to get some input as to how well each one might fit my requirements, or if there's something else that comes to mind:

- Roland RD-88
- Roland FP30X
- Roland Juno DS88
- Korg Kross 2-88MB
- Korg Krome EX 88

Thanks in advance for reading and your help!

I think the Roland FP30x would be good because it has the full weighted action. I'm not familiar with the others.  I'd be very curious about why you didn't like the FP90x.  Someone on a learning site I belong to is always pushing me on why I am so happy with my Roland RP501 (which is equivalent to an FP30, except it's a console).  He thinks the action on the 30x and my 501 is inadequate and swears by the FP90x, which has the higher-end Roland action.  I think mine is perfect, and I don't want anything else.  No temptation to upgrade!

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

BarbaraRB wrote:

I think the Roland FP30x would be good because it has the full weighted action. I'm not familiar with the others.  I'd be very curious about why you didn't like the FP90x.  Someone on a learning site I belong to is always pushing me on why I am so happy with my Roland RP501 (which is equivalent to an FP30, except it's a console).  He thinks the action on the 30x and my 501 is inadequate and swears by the FP90x, which has the higher-end Roland action.  I think mine is perfect, and I don't want anything else.  No temptation to upgrade!

Always a very personal preference! When the FP90 came out, I tested it and did not like the action. I ended up buying the previous generation FP-80 after doing a side-by-side comparison with the FP-90. I have not tried FP-90x however. Sometimes newer is not necessarily better...
As for the Roland actions in general,  Phil Best has said that they are the closest to a real Steinway action. Indeed, I had no trouble playing a concert on Steinway D after practising solely on the FP-80/Pianoteq.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

aWc wrote:
BarbaraRB wrote:

I think the Roland FP30x would be good because it has the full weighted action. I'm not familiar with the others.  I'd be very curious about why you didn't like the FP90x.  Someone on a learning site I belong to is always pushing me on why I am so happy with my Roland RP501 (which is equivalent to an FP30, except it's a console).  He thinks the action on the 30x and my 501 is inadequate and swears by the FP90x, which has the higher-end Roland action.  I think mine is perfect, and I don't want anything else.  No temptation to upgrade!

Always a very personal preference! When the FP90 came out, I tested it and did not like the action. I ended up buying the previous generation FP-80 after doing a side-by-side comparison with the FP-90. I have not tried FP-90x however. Sometimes newer is not necessarily better...
As for the Roland actions in general,  Phil Best has said that they are the closest to a real Steinway action. Indeed, I had no trouble playing a concert on Steinway D after practising solely on the FP-80/Pianoteq.


Yes, it's totally personal, but I have to tell you that I feel vindicated by your comments!  I have a Roland RP501, which I bought last year, when I returned to piano after *60* years.  (I took lessons in elementary school and was good for my age, but I hadn't touched a piano until this past September.  So I'm a beginner once again.  Zen mind, beginner's mind!)

A member of a Forum elsewhere has been trying diligently to convince me that I am wrong in my happiness with the Roland's PH4 action, which seems perfect to me.  He went through a gazillion pianos, in search of the perfect action, and settled on the FP90x.  I shared a clip from your comments with him, and he responded with a detailed analysis of everything that is right with the FP90x and wrong with the PH4.  I was especially pleased with Phil Best's comment comparing it with the Steinway.  That thrilled me! He also recommended a dozen ways to alter my Pianoteq setup (which he hasn't seen, of course), until I told him that my favorite techie motto is "never mess with a running system."

Meanwhile, they will have to pry my RP501 from my cold, dead hands.  I think I am a piano monogamist in terms of equipment, even though I am now becoming wildly promiscuous with the different pianos here at Pianoteq.  Viva la difference!

Re: Help choosing 88-key stage piano/MIDI controller

I recommend trying as many of these digital piano brands as you can in real life and try these over and over with different music styles, speed and dynamics to get the feel of them. The advantage too with playing them in person is you get to hear them for real rather than through your computer speakers as someone else plays the model on a YouTube video which is very compressed.