Sound quality (Page 1 of 2)

The most usual reason for this problem it's improper velocity curves adjust. Try to reduce it.
First try to set your controller sesnsibility adjust to heavy. Then, if necessary, make final adjusts in pianoteq velocity curves display.

Beto-Music wrote:

The most usual reason for this problem it's improper velocity curves adjust. Try to reduce it.
First try to set your controller sesnsibility adjust to heavy. Then, if necessary, make final adjusts in pianoteq velocity curves display.

I find this extremely difficult to do it correctly. I would say the first step instead should be listening to the blues demo. Does it sound good or bad? That would rule out many other things before you enter this rabbit hole where I am (check my other posts in this forum).

Second, find the midi files of the recordings you like from the website and see if you can reproduce the same sound by playing them in PTQ. That also would rule out many issues.

Then, yes, I agree, improper velocity curve is likely the culprit, but "adjusting it" is a tough job and having verified that someone's else MIDI file sounds great will give you certainty that you are spending the time on the right thing, and trust me, you'll need that psychological help because it'll be time consuming and frustrating....

dv wrote:

Beto-Music wrote:

The most usual reason for this problem it's improper velocity curves adjust. Try to reduce it.
First try to set your controller sesnsibility adjust to heavy. Then, if necessary, make final adjusts in pianoteq velocity curves display.

I find this extremely difficult to do it correctly. I would say the first step instead should be listening to the blues demo. Does it sound good or bad? That would rule out many other things before you enter this rabbit hole where I am (check my other posts in this forum).

Second, find the midi files of the recordings you like from the website and see if you can reproduce the same sound by playing them in PTQ. That also would rule out many issues.

Then, yes, I agree, improper velocity curve is likely the culprit, but "adjusting it" is a tough job and having verified that someone's else MIDI file sounds great will give you certainty that you are spending the time on the right thing, and trust me, you'll need that psychological help because it'll be time consuming and frustrating....

I'll try to get the MIDI files and check, how it will sound with my equipment and settings. Thank you for the feedback and your proposals.

Sorry, but I can find the audio files on the Modartt site (selecting e.g. Steinway D) but where to find the corresponding MIDI files?
Most of the other feedbacks are dealing with "velocity curve". Niclas Fogwall from the Modartt Support proposed this also as a first step. I forwarded a MIDI file to him. I looking forward for his proposals.

FrankZapp wrote:

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

This may (or may not) help-- https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php...97#p979597

Thank you for your feedback. Currently I'm not that experienced in using Pianoteq's possibilities regarding settings and adjustments.
I'll try to adjust the velocity curve and check the result.

And you might try adjusting and reducing the Forte hammer hardness, using the sliders in Pianoteq's Voicing panel. The scope of adjustments and parameters available to Pianoteq users, especially in Pianoteq Pro with the Note Edit feature, is truly impressive.

@Frank: interesting that you have the FP30. My experience with FP30 is that, after a lot of trial and error, I find I don't need to deviate very much from the straight line (other users have found that too, see the thread on FP30 in the Velocity Curves section of the forum). The velocity curve generated by the calibration assistant was much too aggressive (as I eventually discovered), but I stuck with it for quite a while, not really knowing what to do about it. In the end it dawned on me to record some of my own MIDI files at a range of dynamic levels and then play them back while adjusting areas of the velocity curve. 3rd-party MIDI files are not helpful in finding your preferred velocity curve, because it's somebody else playing on (very often) an unknown keyboard!

dazric wrote:

@Frank: interesting that you have the FP30. My experience with FP30 is that, after a lot of trial and error, I find I don't need to deviate very much from the straight line (other users have found that too, see the thread on FP30 in the Velocity Curves section of the forum). The velocity curve generated by the calibration assistant was much too aggressive (as I eventually discovered), but I stuck with it for quite a while, not really knowing what to do about it. In the end it dawned on me to record some of my own MIDI files at a range of dynamic levels and then play them back while adjusting areas of the velocity curve. 3rd-party MIDI files are not helpful in finding your preferred velocity curve, because it's somebody else playing on (very often) an unknown keyboard!

Like you, after a lot of playing, testing and errors, I gradually came back to a curve close to the straight line on fp-10 (still very slightly concave).I find it comfortable but I still don't know if it is realistic and close to a real grand piano. That's why I would like pianoteq to provide for the most common keyboards the most realistic curves measured and validated by them.
I imagine if one day I am offered a real steinway B or D... and I can't play it because I find it too hard or too soft... it would be stupid anyway...

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

YvesTh wrote:

dazric wrote:

@Frank: interesting that you have the FP30. My experience with FP30 is that, after a lot of trial and error, I find I don't need to deviate very much from the straight line (other users have found that too, see the thread on FP30 in the Velocity Curves section of the forum). The velocity curve generated by the calibration assistant was much too aggressive (as I eventually discovered), but I stuck with it for quite a while, not really knowing what to do about it. In the end it dawned on me to record some of my own MIDI files at a range of dynamic levels and then play them back while adjusting areas of the velocity curve. 3rd-party MIDI files are not helpful in finding your preferred velocity curve, because it's somebody else playing on (very often) an unknown keyboard!

Like you, after a lot of playing, testing and errors, I gradually came back to a curve close to the straight line on fp-10 (still very slightly concave).I find it comfortable but I still don't know if it is realistic and close to a real grand piano. That's why I would like pianoteq to provide for the most common keyboards the most realistic curves measured and validated by them.
I imagine if one day I am offered a real steinway B or D... and I can't play it because I find it too hard or too soft... it would be stupid anyway...

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Hi Yves, same question to you like a asked dazric already
Could you forward me the FXP file with your settings? Would be great to check them out. Perhaps it will help me at least to give it a start (my velocity curve etc. trials and errors.....)

FrankZapp wrote:

YvesTh wrote:

Like you, after a lot of playing, testing and errors, I gradually came back to a curve close to the straight line on fp-10 (still very slightly concave).I find it comfortable but I still don't know if it is realistic and close to a real grand piano. That's why I would like pianoteq to provide for the most common keyboards the most realistic curves measured and validated by them.
I imagine if one day I am offered a real steinway B or D... and I can't play it because I find it too hard or too soft... it would be stupid anyway...

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Hi Yves, same question to you like a asked dazric already
Could you forward me the FXP file with your settings? Would be great to check them out. Perhaps it will help me at least to give it a start (my velocity curve etc. trials and errors.....)

Hello FrankZapp(a),
I have been using pianoteq with my fp-10 for almost two years. It is connected to a PC and I use a Daart DAC amp with Seinnheiser HD-540 open headphones. I am fully satisfied with the overall audio quality. I mainly use the player presets of instruments. I started playing by creating a velocity curve with the built-in application.
Global Velocity = [0, 7, 17, 34, 56, 127; 0, 22, 39, 57, 76, 127]
The result was a very concave curve that I got tired of as I got a little more comfortable with my keyboard.
I then played quite comfortably with a slightly flatter curve for months:
Global Velocity = [0, 10, 20, 36, 53, 70, 85, 127; 0, 25, 41, 55, 67, 81, 93, 127]
After some suggestions from users about the use of the straight curve on the fp-10 or 30 I created an intermediate curve that was quite satisfactory for me. Today I play with this curve but I still sometimes test it by modifying it :
Global Velocity = [0, 7, 17, 122; 0, 17, 30, 127]
All this is very very subjective, these curves have no scientific value, it is just my sensation.. I'm just a pianist amateur... I own an upright but no grand piano to compare...

Off topic, Frank Zappa is one of my favorite musicians for more than 45 years... I've seen him many times in concert and I know all his albums, a giant... Happy to meet another fan ... I presume.

I don't want to say, that the Pianoteq sounds are not really marvelous, but I can't match the sounds I can hear in the demos using the same presets. Even playing a simpel II, V, I jazz cadence should give me a similar sound, independent from being an amateur musician or a professional.

Hmm, I don't know if there's a way to import/export all the velocity curve data all at once - I tend to do them one at a time, but the main focus is usually the note-on curve anyway. For me the note-off and pedal curves are more 'set it and forget it' unless there are obvious problems. (BTW, the reason I didn't have the note-off going all the way down to 0 was to avoid sounding as though the piano had defective dampers). If I'm experimenting with different curves I'll have several lined up in a text file so I can just copy and paste away...

Another thing I can say about the sound of piano playing is the importance of headphones. I first tried to play with a Focal spirit one (closed) quite good for music listening, but using it live with pianoteq was not at all realistic and not pleasant. That's why I took out my old sennheiser HD540 (35 years old)(opened) and the feeling is great and very realistic... But 600 ohms needs a good ampli... I then tried with another open headset (HD599) interesting but not as good as the HD540. I think the choice of an open headset IMO is very important. But it is just my opinion...
I also have presonus eris 3.5 monitors for direct listening but I don't find the result very good. I can't imagine a real piano in front of me...

Hi Frank,

I have the FP90, not the FP30, so I can connect the FP90 to the Steinberg device via MIDI cables. In your case you must use an USB cable to connect the FP30 with the PC directly, I think.
I tried the MIDI-over-USB before and it worked fine with a high quality USB cable (but not with a cheap one).

The UR22 MK22 is for USB-2.0. It works well on my old notebook (Windows 7), but it does not work well with my new notebook (USB-C only), most probably because of the USB adapters and HUBs from USB-2 to USB-C.
I think your MacBook Pro does have USB-3, so the Steinberg UR22C-USB3 or similar might be the better choice.

I think the minimum hardware setup in your case would be a high quality USB cable from FP30 to MacBook for the MIDI information. With a little bit of luck the modification of the "Key touch" already provides excellent sound on headphone output of the MacBook. This setup can be extended with an external sound card to boost the Beyer Dynamics.

In my specific setup the Audio Out from the Roland and a Rode Microphone are connected to the Steinberg, and the Audio Out from the Steinberg is connected to the Roland. This is due to the Flute and Piano online lessons for my kids. But Pianoteq is not involved here...

I built up my hardware setup after studying the website from Jane: https://www.musicrepo.com/home-recording-studio-setup/

Best regards

Martin

I absolutely sympathise with the OP. In Pianoteq we have several pianos. For each piano we have a range, sometimes large, of presets, all of which sound different. The piano sound changes again with different velocity curves. . If I use different headphones the sounds are different again.  Likewise different speakers sound different. And yet, those of you with better ears than mine are able to discuss the characteristics of each Pianoteq piano in detail, as if these characteristics were fixed properties.  Added to this, all acoustic pianos sound different from each other, not least because of the rooms they are in. I am not out to be difficult; it's just that, much as I love Pianoteq, I continually drive myself crazy (and waste a lot of playing time) trying to get the best possible sound.
The same variety of audio components produces perfectly satisfactory piano sound from CD, streaming services or YouTube.

I really would appreciate some practical advice, preferably couched in simple terms.

Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, (Ptq manual it says you can rotate the head and make it bigger) in any direction. but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat? Binaural is ment for headphones.

If it could be possible to put a video cam in the recording head and synchronize the movements of the head/eye with the recording. It could help listening, giving more life to the experience, when the position of the head and the information of the eyesight works together in videorecording.
In my opinion there is work to do with binaural, but it is the future.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, (Ptq manual it says you can rotate the head and make it bigger) in any direction. but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat? Binaural is ment for headphones.

I tried it only a little bit with Pianoteq, so perhaps I have not found yet the right settings, but I am one of the dissatisfied persons. On the other hand, I've often had my socks blown off by binaural demos on YouTube, so it's not that I'm insensitive to this: I really like it. Just that something is amiss with pianoteq default settings for me.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

If it could be possible to put a video cam in the recording head and synchronize the movements of the head/eye with the recording. It could help listening, giving more life to the experience, when the position of the head and the information of the eyesight works together in videorecording.
In my opinion there is work to do with binaural, but it is the future.

That's exactly what this guy has done (with samples, obviously, not model): https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/263-the-...zioli-f308

Maybe now that pianoteq is giving some programmatical access to itself via the JSON API, we're getting close? I certainly hope so.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

The problem is with headphones, that the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear (unlike standing beside a real piano, where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears from different directions,
depending on reflections from the walls).

Did you try to reduce the stereo level?