Modartt user forum » Pianoteq user forum » Article\Ad with info on density of rims and bridges for various pianos
The chart at the bottom gives specific information about the janka hardness, etc. But the company is of course making an argument for its claim about the superiority of American pianos, which it happens to sell.
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/american...rior-wood/
(Yes, there's a bit of a nudge for a Baldwin model behind this post...) :=)
The chart at the bottom gives specific information about the janka hardness, etc. But the company is of course making an argument for its claim about the superiority of American pianos, which it happens to sell.
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/american...rior-wood/
(Yes, there's a bit of a nudge for a Baldwin model behind this post...) :=)
Many ways to skin a cat, including in marketing!
Note at the end the article points out this is a comparison between US pianos and Japanese. They point out European piano woods are of similar hardness to that used in US pianos.
So mainly upselling from lower cost Japanese pianos I guess.
Maybe I have cloth ears but the top of the range Kawai and Yamaha sound pretty darned special to me too.
I imagine it all gets hellish complicated. Whether to dampen with mass in specific places or allow the wood to sing, which may be pleasant on some material and distracting on others. - aren't we lucky we can choose different models of pianos for the track!
Edit:
Look what Bosendorfer and Grotrian do with their tone woods:
Bosendorfer: "Contrary to all other manufactures Bösendorfer constructs instruments concentrating on the use of spruce. More than 80% of this wood, ideal for instruments, can be found in Bösendorfer pianos. Very similar in principle to a violin the whole body - not exclusively the soundboard - supports sound formation. The actual core of the piano rim consists of a 10 mm quarter-sawn piece that is specially grooved by our craftsmen to allow it to be bent to the silhouette around the inner rim – this is unique to Bösendorfer. When a note is played, the integrated spruce components become acoustically active, forming a complete resonating body that allows the whole instrument to project your play. For outstanding richness of tone colour and our legendary pure and brilliant sound. This complex construction is part of the Viennese tradition of piano making."
Grotrian:
"The wood for the various parts of the instrument which must be strong and highly stable are made from solid red beech tree. This applies for example to the grand piano legs and to the sound board bracing. The sound board itself is made of carefully selected mountain spruce with a minimum age of 200 years. The annual rings of this wood are extremely thin, which makes the entire sound board homogeneous."
Oh, it also turns out the cost no object Yamaha CFX is also made with European spruce. I'm sure they would've used American woods if they considered them superior.
Jake Johnson wrote:The chart at the bottom gives specific information about the janka hardness, etc. But the company is of course making an argument for its claim about the superiority of American pianos, which it happens to sell.
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/american...rior-wood/
(Yes, there's a bit of a nudge for a Baldwin model behind this post...) :=)
Many ways to skin a cat, including in marketing!
Note at the end the article points out this is a comparison between US pianos and Japanese. They point out European piano woods are of similar hardness to that used in US pianos.
So mainly upselling from lower cost Japanese pianos I guess.Maybe I have cloth ears but the top of the range Kawai and Yamaha sound pretty darned special to me too.
I imagine it all gets hellish complicated. Whether to dampen with mass in specific places or allow the wood to sing, which may be pleasant on some material and distracting on others. - aren't we lucky we can choose different models of pianos for the track!
Edit:
Look what Bosendorfer and Grotrian do with their tone woods:
Bosendorfer: "Contrary to all other manufactures Bösendorfer constructs instruments concentrating on the use of spruce. More than 80% of this wood, ideal for instruments, can be found in Bösendorfer pianos. Very similar in principle to a violin the whole body - not exclusively the soundboard - supports sound formation. The actual core of the piano rim consists of a 10 mm quarter-sawn piece that is specially grooved by our craftsmen to allow it to be bent to the silhouette around the inner rim – this is unique to Bösendorfer. When a note is played, the integrated spruce components become acoustically active, forming a complete resonating body that allows the whole instrument to project your play. For outstanding richness of tone colour and our legendary pure and brilliant sound. This complex construction is part of the Viennese tradition of piano making."Grotrian:
"The wood for the various parts of the instrument which must be strong and highly stable are made from solid red beech tree. This applies for example to the grand piano legs and to the sound board bracing. The sound board itself is made of carefully selected mountain spruce with a minimum age of 200 years. The annual rings of this wood are extremely thin, which makes the entire sound board homogeneous."Oh, it also turns out the cost no object Yamaha CFX is also made with European spruce. I'm sure they would've used American woods if they considered them superior.
I love the sound of many Kawai and Yamaha pianos, too, and I agree the impedance of the rims is probably best considered a variable. This piano company, however, does stand by its claim that hard rock maple is the defining element that creates what it hears as a distinctly American sound. Another article\ad on its site says that Mason Hamlin takes things to another level, using hard rock maple that is 30% thicker than that on the rims of competing brands, including American Steinways:
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/mason-ha...nway-sons/
If accurate, that would seem to mean that American makers, and particularly Mason-Hamlin, are more focused on making the sound board the sole transducer?
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/mason-ha...nway-sons/
If accurate, that would seem to mean that American makers, and particularly Mason-Hamlin, are more focused on making the sound board the sole transducer?
I don't know if it's possible to make such a large resonating area effectively inert. Or if it would release the energy more slowly due to the extra mass?
I know it's very difficult to make loudspeaker cabinets that don't contribute to the sound.
Note the dealer is just a reseller of Steinway, not a main dealer. I don't suppose Steinway can stop anyone from being a second-hand reseller.
Edit:
They seem highly opinionated, but in an interesting way:
https://www.hollywoodpiano.com/piano-ca...nos/kawai/
Interesting opinion on Kawai/Boston pianos made for Steinway too. I Imagine they've burned their bridges with Steinway!
So they say they were also a second-hand reseller of Japanese Kawai pianos for quite some years.
Allegedly Kawai America later attempted to discredit their own old legacy/old/used pianos in order to sell the new ones.
As the market shrinks from a commercial perspective it must always be difficult for a new piano dealer to both sell prospective owners on the lifelong investment of a quality piano (that could probably outlast you) and also put people off buying a pristine well serviced or barely used (as discussed in another thread recently) second hand model.
Mason and Hamlin makes a very thick rim. Their rim, has two parts as well, and inner and an outer rim. They source their wood locally from what I was told with the Maple come from either western or central Massachusetts, or somewhere in New Hampshire. Their soundboards come from Connecticut, I think, and are Eastern Spruce which is related to the Bavarian Spruce genetically.
I am lucky that I have had the opportunity to visit the factory during the Piano World tours. The factory is only about 2.5 miles (4 km) from where I live in Haverhill, MA. Their construction methods are very automated today with parts mass-produced using CNC machines. They also do a lot of things now that they did not do before when they first started up operations such as using a thick laminate on the rim that is bent and even has cracks. The maple laminate strips are made at the factory by plaining down planks on giant sanding machines. Once each strip is the right thickness, they are then laminated together using epoxy. The thicker strips are bent around metal forms and clamped into place. While this is done in a warm and humid environment, the wood isn't that flexible and cracks and splits. The splinters are cut off and the wood is sanded. There are all kinds of voids in the rim that are filled in with epoxy later on during the finishing process. This is totally unlike what was done when they first started operations. Back then they took their time, and the rim didn't have splits in it from what I remember.
What is interesting, however, is when they first started up operation again in Haverhill the shop foreman and some engineers visited my piano teacher who just passed away this year. (1920-2021). She owned a 1905 M&H AA that was owned by the Mason family. She taught the Mason kids and was given one of their pianos.
One day, she got a call, and the engineers and foreman came over to measure her piano. She was all excited when they visited and called me up afterwards to tell me how they used measuring tools to check out her piano. Sadly, after she passed away the piano went somewhere probably to be scrapped. Her family were totally uncaring and pushed her and the piano to the side. To be honest, the instrument was at that stage anyway and well beyond that point where anything could be done to it to make it more than a badly abused piano. The piano was worn out completely having been used continuously as a teaching instrument from 1945 until 2015.
As far as sound goes, I'm not impressed with the new Mason and Hamlin pianos. They lack that warm yet clear tone that they were known for. Their earlier production is far different than the current ones and the modern process along with some design changes has completely altered the character of the pianos.
When I was piano hunting 16 years ago (Yike!), I tried various Yamaha, Kawai, and European pianos within my budget and space. I settled for a Vogel 177T This is a parlor-sized grand that has that clear tone that I favor. Unlike the Kawai and Yamahas of the same size, this piano was never harsh and brassy which I found common especially with the Yamaha instruments.
When I was piano hunting 16 years ago (Yike!), I tried various Yamaha, Kawai, and European pianos within my budget and space. I settled for a Vogel 177T This is a parlor-sized grand that has that clear tone that I favor. Unlike the Kawai and Yamahas of the same size, this piano was never harsh and brassy which I found common especially with the Yamaha instruments.
Your observations about hunting for piano for and how Mason & Hamlin have changed reminds me of the advice of several luthiers, that for violins, machine-made violins will always sound terrible because no luthier is involved to select and carve the back and front to match each other in tone. As no two pieces of wood are the same, cutting a back and front to an established size--no matter how precise--does anything to make a whole unit out of the two pieces of wood. Luthiers spend most of their time when making a violin shaving super-thin bits of wood (practically measured in microns) to get the front and back pieces to resonate as a unit. Otherwise, something unexpected happens, the violin will be very loud and satisfying for the player (giving the perception that the instrument has a big loud sound while also leading to hearing fatigue), but a few feet away from the player, the instrument will sound too quiet, and it will certainly be impossible to use the instrument in a hall for solo or orchestral work because it won't project. However, a hand-made (or more precisely hand-regulated) instrument will be quieter for the performer but will project magnificently in any size of space.
I wonder how much the same principle applies with the pianos, that as the expertise of artisans, who specialized as factory technicians and action regulators are phased out (or sadly die out) of the process, the quality control that could be married to the machined automation is simply being skipped. I too find most modern piano brands designed to give a harsh, loud sound that makes the performer feel like they sound good, but neither the instrument nor the player sound good to an audience in both a small room and a large hall.
As time passes, I feel that the entire piano industry is getting more and more arbitrary (and arguably fatalistic) in its marketing decisions. I see more adds about the choice of veneer than I do about what brand of hammers are inside an instrument. I care far more about what's actually hitting the strings or how the strings' kinetic energy is distributed to the soundboard than I do about what new-fangled material the whippen is made of or who holds the world record for longest key length. *sigh*