Topic by willashe

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Topic: Casio gp 300 310

Hello there.

I am considering buying a used gp 300 or new gp 310 to replace a VPC1 which for me is good but a bit sluggish and heavy in it's mechanical action. I have found some velocity curves to compensate but it not the same as a lighter more responsive mechanical action.

I will get to play the gp 300 next week and be able to try with pianoteq so maybe I can answer my own questions at that time.

I am looking for comments, feedback, from anyone using a gp 300 or gp 310, 500, 510 with pianoteq. How well do they work together, improvements over other keyboard pairings, velocity curve settings, set up issues, etc. Also potential maintenance. General comments on action feel and responsiveness with pianoteq would be appreciated as well.

Should there be any advantage to a gp310 as a midi keyboard for pianoteq over the gp300.

Thanks

Reply by rasaru

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Hi,
I have played the GP-500 for about 2 years. The  keyboard is very good. (Casio use High density MiDi out)
As a midi keyboard no problem to connect it to the PC. (I use a Raspberry Pi4, with DAC).

I had connected the LINE OUT of the GP-500 to a headphone amplifier. Sound better (subjective).
The LINE OUT of the RaspBerry into LINE IN of the Casio and I could use the speakers of the Casio.
Interesting was the comparison of the CASIO - Berlin sound with the sound of the PTQ Bechstein.
Now I have a Seiler piano (with ADsilent).

The 310/510 has a better keyboard and better speakers, ....

Have fun playing GP-300.

Rainer

Reply by willashe

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

rasaru wrote:

Hi,
I have played the GP-500 for about 2 years. The  keyboard is very good. (Casio use High density MiDi out)
As a midi keyboard no problem to connect it to the PC. (I use a Raspberry Pi4, with DAC).

I had connected the LINE OUT of the GP-500 to a headphone amplifier. Sound better (subjective).
The LINE OUT of the RaspBerry into LINE IN of the Casio and I could use the speakers of the Casio.
Interesting was the comparison of the CASIO - Berlin sound with the sound of the PTQ Bechstein.
Now I have a Seiler piano (with ADsilent).

The 310/510 has a better keyboard and better speakers, ....

Have fun playing GP-300.

Rainer

Thanks
Any suggestions on velocity curves.

Reply by rasaru

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Any suggestions on velocity curves.

I used this simple one: Velocity = [0, 110; 0, 127]
Try to calibrate the keyboard to your own preferences.

Reply by tmyoung

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

On my GP300, I use the following curve:

Global Velocity = [0, 1, 11, 26, 61, 110, 127; 0, 0, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Global Note-Off Velocity = [0, 0, 68, 101, 127; 0, 32, 96, 127, 127]
Global Sustain Velocity = [0, 10, 54, 117, 127; 0, 0, 64, 127, 127]
Aftertouch Velocity = [0, 127; 0, 0]

The 300, 400, and 500 series are basically (if not entirely) the same as far as action is concerned; the differences are primarily with the finish and on-board computer features.  I'm not as knowledgeable about the differences between the 300 and 310, but I know they're very similar as far as using them for PTQ.  There were advertised changes the action/touch, but I've never really found exactly what the changes were.  More here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....gp500.html

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Reply by willashe

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

tmyoung wrote:

On my GP300, I use the following curve:

Global Velocity = [0, 1, 11, 26, 61, 110, 127; 0, 0, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Global Note-Off Velocity = [0, 0, 68, 101, 127; 0, 32, 96, 127, 127]
Global Sustain Velocity = [0, 10, 54, 117, 127; 0, 0, 64, 127, 127]
Aftertouch Velocity = [0, 127; 0, 0]

The 300, 400, and 500 series are basically (if not entirely) the same as far as action is concerned; the differences are primarily with the finish and on-board computer features.  I'm not as knowledgeable about the differences between the 300 and 310, but I know they're very similar as far as using them for PTQ.  There were advertised changes the action/touch, but I've never really found exactly what the changes were.  More here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....gp500.html

I wrote to Casio US about the mechanical differences. Their reply was "Based on all of the specs the GP-300 and GP-310 are identical instruments. It seems the only difference in the units would be the new technology for control of the strokes". I am not sure what the new technology for control of key strokes is. Maybe expaned velocity curve control or dynamic range similar to pianoteq. I have read somewhere they may have relocated the midi sensors but that is not confirmed. Maybe the new technology only helps with the onboard sound engine/system and would not apply to a midi vst application. I wrote Casio again about these questions but no reply.
Thanks for the info

Reply by tmyoung

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

willashe wrote:

I wrote to Casio US about the mechanical differences. Their reply was "Based on all of the specs the GP-300 and GP-310 are identical instruments. It seems the only difference in the units would be the new technology for control of the strokes". I am not sure what the new technology for control of key strokes is. Maybe expaned velocity curve control or dynamic range similar to pianoteq. I have read somewhere they may have relocated the midi sensors but that is not confirmed. Maybe the new technology only helps with the onboard sound engine/system and would not apply to a midi vst application. I wrote Casio again about these questions but no reply.
Thanks for the info

In some of the marketing literature I've read, there was a mention of refinements to better velocity sensitivity control specifically when playing pianissimo, which I assume is what they're referencing.  I've heard from a few people that the velocity calibration is slightly different between the two versions, but I've never side-by-side test them for that.  Like you, I'm betting that with Pianoteq, the differences between two individual GP300s and a GP300 and 310 will be about the same.  I also wonder if the changes, like you said, are purely in the audio engine and onboard computer and not physically changed in the action design or any electronic sensors.

https://www.worldpianonews.com/new-prod...nd-gp-510/

Really strange that CASIO doesn't appear to know the answer...

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Reply by NULL_Bits

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

OP, I’m really curious as to what your results are or what other people say here.

I have a Casio GP-400 and the thing that drives me crazy the most is that it has (I believe) only 4 velocity layers for the samples. There’s a TON of room between the softest I can play and when it registers the next velocity layer, so basically when I try to play ppp or just p it sound exact the same, same with f and fff, so hopefully Pianoteq resolves that problem.

As far as the rest of the piano goes - the fit and finish of the keys themselves is top notch, but the actual key action is pretty meh. Despite having grand-ish like keys it doesn’t feel anything like a grand piano to me because there’s no escapement and the key pressure is very linear and requires a fair amount of force to do things like hold chords. Also for me doing things like playing fast trills at low velocity is very difficult since there’s no escapement therefor you can’t play “above the escapement” - to me it’s very “punching bag”-like in nature. I’d definitely play with it before committing because the key action seems to be very love it or hate it.

Reply by willashe

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

NULL_Bits wrote:

OP, I’m really curious as to what your results are or what other people say here.

I have a Casio GP-400 and the thing that drives me crazy the most is that it has (I believe) only 4 velocity layers for the samples. There’s a TON of room between the softest I can play and when it registers the next velocity layer, so basically when I try to play ppp or just p it sound exact the same, same with f and fff, so hopefully Pianoteq resolves that problem.

As far as the rest of the piano goes - the fit and finish of the keys themselves is top notch, but the actual key action is pretty meh. Despite having grand-ish like keys it doesn’t feel anything like a grand piano to me because there’s no escapement and the key pressure is very linear and requires a fair amount of force to do things like hold chords. Also for me doing things like playing fast trills at low velocity is very difficult since there’s no escapement therefor you can’t play “above the escapement” - to me it’s very “punching bag”-like in nature. I’d definitely play with it before committing because the key action seems to be very love it or hate it.

Thanks for giving your experience. I will be looking for the issues you mention when I try the gp300. I'll be bringing my laptop and headphones since that is mostly how I will be using the keyboard.
Your phrase "hopefully Pianoteq solves that problem" makes me wonder if you are talking about issues playing through the gp400 sound system stand alone or using it as midi with Pianoteq.
The key pressure you mention surprises me and I will be looking at that. My VPC1 has a down weight of 61-64 grams at middle C which is a bit heavy for me. I was hoping to go lighter(50 grams or so at middle C) and need less force playing far in.
I have had an upper velocity and lower velocity sensitivity issue with the VPC1. Now I've found a PTQ velocity curve that helps compensate so it is better. I tried using a light setting on the keyboard itself. It helped with the sensitivity but seemed to alter the timbre of all the notes. Brighter and harsh so that was not good for me.
There was a post by a gp300 user that says he found the soft 2 setting on the gp300 helped with response, possibly improving ppp sensitivity. I will give this setting a try.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....oller.html

Casio has stated one of the improvements of the gp310 is improved velocity sensitivity. Or technology for control for control of strokes. A question I have is whether these improvements apply only to the onboard sound engine/system or whether they would apply to midi output and create better sensitivity(ppp-p response etc) for vsts/PTQ. Also how much PTQ via velocity settings as well as the onboard sensitivity settings of the 300 can compensate.

Reply by NULL_Bits

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

willashe wrote:

Thanks for giving your experience. I will be looking for the issues you mention when I try the gp300. I'll be bringing my laptop and headphones since that is mostly how I will be using the keyboard.
Your phrase "hopefully Pianoteq solves that problem" makes me wonder if you are talking about issues playing through the gp400 sound system stand alone or using it as midi with Pianoteq.
The key pressure you mention surprises me and I will be looking at that. My VPC1 has a down weight of 61-64 grams at middle C which is a bit heavy for me. I was hoping to go lighter(50 grams or so at middle C) and need less force playing far in.
I have had an upper velocity and lower velocity sensitivity issue with the VPC1. Now I've found a PTQ velocity curve that helps compensate so it is better. I tried using a light setting on the keyboard itself. It helped with the sensitivity but seemed to alter the timbre of all the notes. Brighter and harsh so that was not good for me.
There was a post by a gp300 user that says he found the soft 2 setting on the gp300 helped with response, possibly improving ppp sensitivity. I will give this setting a try.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....oller.html

Casio has stated one of the improvements of the gp310 is improved velocity sensitivity. Or technology for control for control of strokes. A question I have is whether these improvements apply only to the onboard sound engine/system or whether they would apply to midi output and create better sensitivity(ppp-p response etc) for vsts/PTQ. Also how much PTQ via velocity settings as well as the onboard sensitivity settings of the 300 can compensate.

No problem!

The problem I was referring to was the lack of true dynamic feel, playing through the piano's onboard sound system. I'm hoping that since Pianoteq is purely model based I will have more dynamic control. It seems like I should since MIDI can process 127 values for velocity and Pianoteq does a fantastic job simulating dynamics (when testing using my MIDI controller) - I just hope that the Casio GP-400 is very consistent when processing MIDI data. I like to play through the onboard sound system so my ultimate goal is to hook up a Raspberry Pi device with an audio interface running Pianoteq (though a headless system, using my iPad for navigation), I just hope it's all relatively painless with good results, people seem to have pretty good results with other digital pianos so it seems like it should work well.

Doing a very unscientific test and using quarters, middle-C for me is somewhere between 11-12 quarters, so somewhere between around 62 grams and 68 grams. It's hard to find a good source for the key weight, but according to this guy the 310-510 have a weight of 58g at middle-C.

I think the weight is so apparent to me because where I take lessons they have an acoustic grand piano and due to the nature of how it works with escapement once you hold a chord down very little pressure is required to continue holding the chord, whereas with my GP-400 it's static, so it just feels different. This is the case with most digital pianos though, so I'm just being really picky - DPs with escapement are hard to come by and good ones are FAR more expensive.

Overall I like it, and I was incredibly lucky because I found mine at an estate sale for $600 in like-new condition so I shouldn't be complaining! It's just that when I play the grand where I take lessons it's like a chef's kiss!

I am genuinely curious as to what your findings will be though so please post them here if you get the chance! Also thanks for the tip with improving ppp sensitivity, I'll have to give that a try!

Reply by willashe

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

tmyoung wrote:

On my GP300, I use the following curve:

Global Velocity = [0, 1, 11, 26, 61, 110, 127; 0, 0, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Global Note-Off Velocity = [0, 0, 68, 101, 127; 0, 32, 96, 127, 127]
Global Sustain Velocity = [0, 10, 54, 117, 127; 0, 0, 64, 127, 127]
Aftertouch Velocity = [0, 127; 0, 0]


The 300, 400, and 500 series are basically (if not entirely) the same as far as action is concerned; the differences are primarily with the finish and on-board computer features.  I'm not as knowledgeable about the differences between the 300 and 310, but I know they're very similar as far as using them for PTQ.  There were advertised changes the action/touch, but I've never really found exactly what the changes were.  More here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....gp500.html

To tmyoung;

Which keyboard sensitivity setting are you using with the keyboard itself with the settings above in ptq?
Do you happen to know your down touch weight? Would you say the action is medium or heavy?

Reply by hougtimo

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

My thread has arrived!

I've been using PTQ with a Casio GP300 for the past year and a half or so - and I think it's an absolutely superb combination. I'm around acoustic pianos all day every day, and wanted something that would give me the best possible touch to use in conjunction with Pianoteq. I genuinely believe I have the best setup this side of a using a 'proper' piano action (as found in Avantgrand / Novus instruments).

The first this, is to set the velocity setting on the piano to "Light 1" or "Light 2" - I have found that if you leave this on the default setting the repetition suffers.

I then use the following Velocity curve: Velocity = [0, 8, 24, 41, 55, 67, 80, 91, 102, 114, 127; 0, 0, 24, 51, 71, 86, 100, 109, 116, 122, 127] - this was developed with a GP300 & Pianoteq next to a Kawai GL50 Grand Piano - it took me a long time to perfect, but I feel that it works excellently with the piano set to "Light 1".

All in all, I adore my setup, and it's helped me to progress my playing massively.

Reply by willashe

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Casio answered that the all the actions and midi sensors/midi output in the GP series(300,310, 400, 500, 510) are identical, no changes, no differences. So for midi application all the same.
I have had a GP 300 now for a few days and tried several of the velocity curves posted with the on board touch sensitivity set to normal. I have been learning the interaction between on board sensitivity and PTQ velocity curves. The settings posted in this thread are all good, subtle differences.
Velocity = [0, 15, 22, 33, 61, 110, 127; 0, 2, 33, 64, 96, 127, 127] has been working for me. My everyday piano is NY Steinway D, no reverb or delay. Through Mac, Apogee Element, Beyer Dynamic 880 pro headphones. I adjusted the hammer hardness down .05 for Mezzo and Forte. For me the higher velocity curves tend to make the sound a little harsh so the slightly softer hammer helps. Not sure of the relationship between hammer hardness and velocity curve sensitivity.
I will experiment with the light settings onboard.
Very pleased. Playing into the keys is so much nicer than my other keyboard. Touch from front to back of the keys not so different. Much closer to the grands I was able to play side by side with the gp300. I guess the VPC1 will need a new home.

Reply by peterws

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

willashe wrote:

Very pleased. Playing into the keys is so much nicer than my other keyboard. Touch from front to back of the keys not so different. Much closer to the grands I was able to play side by side with the gp300. I guess the VPC1 will need a new home.

You'll soon sort out your own Velocity curve settings.  Best to imagine the sound and brightness of an acoustic, and set accordingly.
Might make it harder to play than the mellower digital voices you'll be used to, but the results will be better for your fingers as well as comparability with the acoustic.
If you want it to sound like an acoustic that is!

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Reply by tmyoung

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

willashe wrote:

Which keyboard sensitivity setting are you using with the keyboard itself with the settings above in ptq?
Do you happen to know your down touch weight? Would you say the action is medium or heavy?

Sorry for not replying sooner!  I just use the default sensitivity settings, and I would say the action is pretty standard for a European grand action and would guess it's in the 48-52gram neighborhood for drop weight at Middle C but I've never directly tested it.  (Besides, mine is getting to be several years old and I don't know how much age and heavy use may have changed things.)

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Reply by Faziolo

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Hi there!

I am thinking of buying the Casio GP-310. I think I will use Pianoteq more than its internal sounds.

Can you tell me if the internal speakers of the GP-310 can sound good with Pianoteq Line-In?

And I was wondering if you use MIDI High Resolution, which is supported by the GP-310. Do you notice a difference to "normal" MIDI?

Thank you very much!
Faziolo

Last edited by Faziolo (19-07-2023 15:51)

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

hougtimo wrote:

My thread has arrived!

I've been using PTQ with a Casio GP300 for the past year and a half or so - and I think it's an absolutely superb combination. I'm around acoustic pianos all day every day, and wanted something that would give me the best possible touch to use in conjunction with Pianoteq. I genuinely believe I have the best setup this side of a using a 'proper' piano action (as found in Avantgrand / Novus instruments).

The first this, is to set the velocity setting on the piano to "Light 1" or "Light 2" - I have found that if you leave this on the default setting the repetition suffers.

I then use the following Velocity curve: Velocity = [0, 8, 24, 41, 55, 67, 80, 91, 102, 114, 127; 0, 0, 24, 51, 71, 86, 100, 109, 116, 122, 127] - this was developed with a GP300 & Pianoteq next to a Kawai GL50 Grand Piano - it took me a long time to perfect, but I feel that it works excellently with the piano set to "Light 1".

All in all, I adore my setup, and it's helped me to progress my playing massively.

i don’t understand your curve , basically you eliminate any low velocity value below 8 and replace it with 0 but velocity 0 in midi protocol is not treated as a note on  event , but as a note off event .  I understand the 8 value ,which corresponds to pppp in midi but by zeroing all velocities below , you remove the ability to play silent notes which trigger  sympathetic resonance . It seems to be that for your keyboard [0,1,8,xxxxx , 0,1,1xxxx] would give the same feeling without removing this feature.

Reply by Nikopol

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Faziolo wrote:

Hi there!

I am thinking of buying the Casio GP-310. I think I will use Pianoteq more than its internal sounds.

Can you tell me if the internal speakers of the GP-310 can sound good with Pianoteq Line-In?

And I was wondering if you use MIDI High Resolution, which is supported by the GP-310. Do you notice a difference to "normal" MIDI?

Thank you very much!
Faziolo

I'll have a chance to test this rig this weekend. So soon I will be able to share my impressions. I read on the website about the technical characteristics and all that, but a test drive will not replace anything)

Reply by hillcow

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Pianistically wrote:

i don’t understand your curve , basically you eliminate any low velocity value below 8 and replace it with 0 but velocity 0 in midi protocol is not treated as a note on  event , but as a note off event .  I understand the 8 value ,which corresponds to pppp in midi but by zeroing all velocities below , you remove the ability to play silent notes which trigger  sympathetic resonance . It seems to be that for your keyboard [0,1,8,xxxxx , 0,1,1xxxx] would give the same feeling without removing this feature.

I think the reason is that on the GP-300, you still get MIDI messages when pushing down the key extremely slowly. On a real grand, you wouldn't get a sound like that. The keys have to be pushed at a certain pace to overcome a threshold.

Casio GP-300

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

hillcow wrote:
Pianistically wrote:

i don’t understand your curve , basically you eliminate any low velocity value below 8 and replace it with 0 but velocity 0 in midi protocol is not treated as a note on  event , but as a note off event .  I understand the 8 value ,which corresponds to pppp in midi but by zeroing all velocities below , you remove the ability to play silent notes which trigger  sympathetic resonance . It seems to be that for your keyboard [0,1,8,xxxxx , 0,1,1xxxx] would give the same feeling without removing this feature.

I think the reason is that on the GP-300, you still get MIDI messages when pushing down the key extremely slowly. On a real grand, you wouldn't get a sound like that. The keys have to be pushed at a certain pace to overcome a threshold.

I understand what you say , but to have to preserve the ability to trigger velocity =1 in order to be able to play silent notes . So you can offset values from 2 upwards but need to preserve velocity 1( assuming your keyboard can produce this velocity) in order to be able to play silent notes which  is used occasionally in some scores to trigger harmonics

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Casio gp 300 310

Pianistically wrote:
hillcow wrote:
Pianistically wrote:

i don’t understand your curve , basically you eliminate any low velocity value below 8 and replace it with 0 but velocity 0 in midi protocol is not treated as a note on  event , but as a note off event .  I understand the 8 value ,which corresponds to pppp in midi but by zeroing all velocities below , you remove the ability to play silent notes which trigger  sympathetic resonance . It seems to be that for your keyboard [0,1,8,xxxxx , 0,1,1xxxx] would give the same feeling without removing this feature.

I think the reason is that on the GP-300, you still get MIDI messages when pushing down the key extremely slowly. On a real grand, you wouldn't get a sound like that. The keys have to be pushed at a certain pace to overcome a threshold.

I understand what you say , but to have to preserve the ability to trigger velocity =1 in order to be able to play silent notes . So you can offset values from 2 upwards but need to preserve velocity 1( assuming your keyboard can produce this velocity) in order to be able to play silent notes which  is used occasionally in some scores to trigger harmonics

actually , I am wrong , your curve is going to work , as you just eliminating any sound for very low velocities are quasi linear above 8 to 24 and then light above
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