Topic: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Hello everyone! I'm working on making my own piano album and I'm not sure what settings I want to use for the final recordings. Currently I only own Blüthner and Petrof, and I have been leaning towards using the Blüthner for my pieces. However, I listened to the album Open Book by Fred Hersch (https://open.spotify.com/album/3oUTSZR1...tStzPe_xSg) and I quite liked the open and airy sound of it. What piano do you think he's using? I tried the Steinway demos and thought the D model sounded pretty similar. I am leaning towards buying it if I could get a similar sound (and because it's pretty fun to play with regardless!). but I would like to hear your opinions.

I tried messing around with the mic positions, eq and reverb on the NY Steinway D Classical recording preset but couldn't nail it down. If anyone wants to give me some tips (or, even better, give it a shot themselves) I would be eternally thankful!

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Presumably it was the piano in this video

Google translate gives:

"Fred Hershey's solo album Open Book, released in 2017, was recorded without an audience from April 1 to 3 at the JCC Art Center in Seoul. And on the evening of April 3, when all the recordings were over, we had one more performance with the audience, and that's the live performance."

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Feffson wrote:

Hello everyone! I'm working on making my own piano album and I'm not sure what settings I want to use for the final recordings. Currently I only own Blüthner and Petrof, and I have been leaning towards using the Blüthner for my pieces. However, I listened to the album Open Book by Fred Hersch (https://open.spotify.com/album/3oUTSZR1...tStzPe_xSg) and I quite liked the open and airy sound of it. What piano do you think he's using? I tried the Steinway demos and thought the D model sounded pretty similar. I am leaning towards buying it if I could get a similar sound (and because it's pretty fun to play with regardless!). but I would like to hear your opinions.

I tried messing around with the mic positions, eq and reverb on the NY Steinway D Classical recording preset but couldn't nail it down. If anyone wants to give me some tips (or, even better, give it a shot themselves) I would be eternally thankful!

That album was recorded at JCC Art Center Hall in Seoul, South Korea.  It's a small wooden hall with very high ceilings.  There's a fair amount of room sound on the recording.  One of the BA Recording presets with whatever piano you like is a good stating point.  Use the small hall reverb set to +5dB, 2 second duration, 0.025s predelay, room size 20, tone +0.22.  Use the EQ to roll off the frequencies below 100hZ or so.

You gotta remember that we're dealing with a virtual simulation, so there is a limit as to how close it's going to get, but Pianoteq sounds terrific in its own right.

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

I haven't listened to it yet but I suggest you take this into consideration when asking what piano was used in any given classical concert hall recording:

"Steinways have never accounted for less than 95% of the performances reported in a given year. It is this data that consistently supports the assertion that Steinway is the choice of 9 out of 10 concert artists and is the preferred instrument of countless pianists, professional and amateur, throughout the world."

I like the variety of high quality models like everyone here but the combination of Steinway's sound quality, heritage and (frankly most importantly for the numbers game) marketing prowess makes having the D pack something of a no brainer if you wanted to recreate what you are hearing on the majority of existing recordings.

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

jsaras wrote:
Feffson wrote:

Hello everyone! I'm working on making my own piano album and I'm not sure what settings I want to use for the final recordings. Currently I only own Blüthner and Petrof, and I have been leaning towards using the Blüthner for my pieces. However, I listened to the album Open Book by Fred Hersch (https://open.spotify.com/album/3oUTSZR1...tStzPe_xSg) and I quite liked the open and airy sound of it. What piano do you think he's using? I tried the Steinway demos and thought the D model sounded pretty similar. I am leaning towards buying it if I could get a similar sound (and because it's pretty fun to play with regardless!). but I would like to hear your opinions.

I tried messing around with the mic positions, eq and reverb on the NY Steinway D Classical recording preset but couldn't nail it down. If anyone wants to give me some tips (or, even better, give it a shot themselves) I would be eternally thankful!

That album was recorded at JCC Art Center Hall in Seoul, South Korea.  It's a small wooden hall with very high ceilings.  There's a fair amount of room sound on the recording.  One of the BA Recording presets with whatever piano you like is a good stating point.  Use the small hall reverb set to +5dB, 2 second duration, 0.025s predelay, room size 20, tone +0.22.  Use the EQ to roll off the frequencies below 100hZ or so.

You gotta remember that we're dealing with a virtual simulation, so there is a limit as to how close it's going to get, but Pianoteq sounds terrific in its own right.

Huge thanks! I'm going to try it out!
And I definitely don't expect it to sound exactly like a real recording, but I'm positive that PianoTeq can come pretty close!

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Key Fumbler wrote:

I haven't listened to it yet but I suggest you take this into consideration when asking what piano was used in any given classical concert hall recording:

"Steinways have never accounted for less than 95% of the performances reported in a given year. It is this data that consistently supports the assertion that Steinway is the choice of 9 out of 10 concert artists and is the preferred instrument of countless pianists, professional and amateur, throughout the world."

I like the variety of high quality models like everyone here but the combination of Steinway's sound quality, heritage and (frankly most importantly for the numbers game) marketing prowess makes having the D pack something of a no brainer if you wanted to recreate what you are hearing on the majority of existing recordings.

You have convinced me. I finished my last exam for this year today and I'm treating myself with the D package! So excited.

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Made an attempt and I'm pretty happy with the sound though someone with more experience could definitely get it even closer. I really do enjoy playing with the Sound Recording mode on to get that realistic feeling! I recorded a little improvisation. If you can hear anything obvious that I should change to make it more suitable to use for an album, I'd love to hear it. Either way I'm very thankful for the help I've gotten so far! I based it on the NY Steinway D Classical Recording preset btw.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...in%20B.mp3

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

That's overall a very pleasing album sound to my ears and for this gentle improv (very delighting too btw). Hope these ideas give you some launching points - happy to help more if I can..

Almost always the first thing to suggest (not a critique) is to listen to a similar piece of music from an album you love the sound of and you've already been doing that - so that's a good start

I'd take some days to allow the comparison to become more at home in your mind when doing this kind of critical listening.. after doing a little more of that over time, things will stand out better esp. if it's not something you have done much in the past. The first clean impression though, is often good enough to take some strong confidence in, if the goal is getting something similar.

Luckily most fundamental elements are at reach in Pianoteq - or a DAW if going into extra production tools.


For some constructive critique - just 2 things might be worth considering initially - regardless of genre (intent, solo or in ensemble/mix/modern) these could apply..


#1

Reverb - quite like it - I'd want to try it mixed down a just little.

I like a lot of reverb when improvising with distant mics, kind of sets a dreamy scene but it may situate the piano a little distant for listening back to (but intent may be for a nice concert hall ambience so this is not a 100% necessary).

At least in an old fashioned album sense, for some perhaps (no correct way - just kind of overview of what some fav albums of piano music generally are remembered to be like) lowering reverb a bit may be the difference between hearing from the back seats, to being situated more in the prime front rows.

To me the referenced example has reverb tucked a little. Depending on how complex you want to treat it besides, maybe the first order thing is to be pretty critical with how much reverb is being applied.

You might be happy as it is - and that's perfectly the ultimate thing - so this is just a personal thing I'd like to suggest that you try of course. 


#2

Overall level seems good to listen to but maybe could be tried a little higher. 

Again just another personal preference of course too - some might like very high volumes by comparison but solo classical piano can sound writ large without needing to be pushed to highest possible volumes too - there seems to be room to increase it a touch without spoiling too much the already comfortably rich dynamic range. The goal is not always about outputting music to a maximum loudness (like some pop etc.) - but, I feel there's maybe some tasty range allowing at least a subtle increase which wouldn't harm it but might make listeners experience it more intimately.

On that - if exporting out of Pianoteq, just a small increase on the main interface volume slider may be better than selecting 'normalize' on output.. But certainly try both ways, compare, see which is the better to you. If using other tools, they'll have lots of caveats etc... but of course let us know and maybe I've used those tools before, and others here, and could help more specifically on those.

About file type..

Your MP3 file is 44.1kHz and sounds like there's no probs in it - so that's good.

(if encountering the need to work with higher rates, cross that bridge when it comes - but so far, that's a nice sounding 44.1 to my ears!).


More waffling ideas you possibly already thought through of course..

If in a DAW, you might like to use a level metering tool - many available, some for free which will allow you to feel confident to attain some guide level range recommended for example by a streaming platform you might want to upload to - but if you are confident that your reference piece has a similar range, that all may not be necessary depending on your own goals and time allowances etc.

I think you're on a great trajectory with this - and it's possible that just the output from Pianoteq without too much fuss can give a worthy and wonderful album sound. It's up to taste and in some cases, routines that the audio may go through, various processes before release into the wild.

Certainly keep us updated, and asking for input and I'll hope to pop in to check progress - and others I encourage to join in with ideas too. Cheers to you Feffson! It def. sounds marvelous so far

BTW - good luck also for your exam results! Sorry if all the above seems like more data to cram but hope to help out

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Qexl wrote:

That's overall a very pleasing album sound to my ears and for this gentle improv (very delighting too btw). Hope these ideas give you some launching points - happy to help more if I can..

Almost always the first thing to suggest (not a critique) is to listen to a similar piece of music from an album you love the sound of and you've already been doing that - so that's a good start

I'd take some days to allow the comparison to become more at home in your mind when doing this kind of critical listening.. after doing a little more of that over time, things will stand out better esp. if it's not something you have done much in the past. The first clean impression though, is often good enough to take some strong confidence in, if the goal is getting something similar.

Luckily most fundamental elements are at reach in Pianoteq - or a DAW if going into extra production tools.


For some constructive critique - just 2 things might be worth considering initially - regardless of genre (intent, solo or in ensemble/mix/modern) these could apply..


#1

Reverb - quite like it - I'd want to try it mixed down a just little.

I like a lot of reverb when improvising with distant mics, kind of sets a dreamy scene but it may situate the piano a little distant for listening back to (but intent may be for a nice concert hall ambience so this is not a 100% necessary).

At least in an old fashioned album sense, for some perhaps (no correct way - just kind of overview of what some fav albums of piano music generally are remembered to be like) lowering reverb a bit may be the difference between hearing from the back seats, to being situated more in the prime front rows.

To me the referenced example has reverb tucked a little. Depending on how complex you want to treat it besides, maybe the first order thing is to be pretty critical with how much reverb is being applied.

You might be happy as it is - and that's perfectly the ultimate thing - so this is just a personal thing I'd like to suggest that you try of course. 


#2

Overall level seems good to listen to but maybe could be tried a little higher. 

Again just another personal preference of course too - some might like very high volumes by comparison but solo classical piano can sound writ large without needing to be pushed to highest possible volumes too - there seems to be room to increase it a touch without spoiling too much the already comfortably rich dynamic range. The goal is not always about outputting music to a maximum loudness (like some pop etc.) - but, I feel there's maybe some tasty range allowing at least a subtle increase which wouldn't harm it but might make listeners experience it more intimately.

On that - if exporting out of Pianoteq, just a small increase on the main interface volume slider may be better than selecting 'normalize' on output.. But certainly try both ways, compare, see which is the better to you. If using other tools, they'll have lots of caveats etc... but of course let us know and maybe I've used those tools before, and others here, and could help more specifically on those.

About file type..

Your MP3 file is 44.1kHz and sounds like there's no probs in it - so that's good.

(if encountering the need to work with higher rates, cross that bridge when it comes - but so far, that's a nice sounding 44.1 to my ears!).


More waffling ideas you possibly already thought through of course..

If in a DAW, you might like to use a level metering tool - many available, some for free which will allow you to feel confident to attain some guide level range recommended for example by a streaming platform you might want to upload to - but if you are confident that your reference piece has a similar range, that all may not be necessary depending on your own goals and time allowances etc.

I think you're on a great trajectory with this - and it's possible that just the output from Pianoteq without too much fuss can give a worthy and wonderful album sound. It's up to taste and in some cases, routines that the audio may go through, various processes before release into the wild.

Certainly keep us updated, and asking for input and I'll hope to pop in to check progress - and others I encourage to join in with ideas too. Cheers to you Feffson! It def. sounds marvelous so far

BTW - good luck also for your exam results! Sorry if all the above seems like more data to cram but hope to help out

Hey Qexl, huge thanks for the detailed reply. Regarding the exams, I'm quite sure they went well which means that my first year of uni is done. Very happy with that! One step closer to becoming a space engineer. Pretty cool

The two things you mentioned had actually crossed my mind, so I'm glad to have my concerns confirmed! I always find the volume matter very hard and it feels like it's always a bit too low when I play it back on my other devices after exporting. I have lowered the reverb a bit and raised the volume to 4 db in the following example. I also raised the damper pedal noise to 10 db and raised the key release noise slightly. This is actually one of the pieces that will be on the album. It was going to just be a test recording but I think I will actually use this for the album since the piece is quite difficult for me to play and frankly I don't want to do it again, heheh... The only thing is that I edited the midi a bit to correct some levels and change some mistakes... but no one will care about that except me, right? Oh and regarding levels and such, a friend of mine who is a producer has offered to master and do final adjustments to make it Spotify ready before I release it, so I probably won't do any DAW-work myself which is a relief.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...ch%202.mp3

Last edited by Feffson (10-06-2021 22:34)

Re: Tips on getting similar sound as this Fred Hersch album

Wonderful to know you're going to be a space engineer BTW! What a cool future, fascinating as well as commendable that you are well on your way to attaining this. Hats off to you and good luck Feffson!

Excellent, having someone to master and prime for the streaming services is great - and will likely make a remarkable positive difference to how others experience your music.

If you don't have to contend with that side of things, you can certainly focus most energy on the music, where you're happy with reverb and final reasonable volume for the file. (volume, dynamics, EQ and more I know are not everyone's idea of fun - and that can all become time consuming too).

My take on this lovely piece, is that it does seem to have a more "this is ready" feel than the file at top - commendable progress!..

Listeners will most certainly notice an improvement (by comparing). Some might deduct it's because of a fuller volume (not maxed out but feeling less distant) - and less wash of reverb (not so far away also).

I think that fundamental is working out well - you hit it


May be worth suggesting that rolling off just a touch more reverb won't hurt - but it's your piano album!

Here's why I mention it (it may seem too much to keep re-considering - but it's  common process..

In mastering it's going to be easier to add a tasteful halo to any reverb (either as additive or just by tweaking up some frequencies or extremely subtle multi-band compress/limit tricks - finding where some nice reverb tails lay in frequencies and enhancing a little etc)..

but not quite so easy to refine down a track with too much reverb. There are things like exciting/manipulating just the attack, whilst suppressing tails to make it seems like reverb is less overall - but even being quite subtle with such routines, to me, those kinds of remedies for lessening reverb are not so great to use particularly on an otherwise nice flowing piano sound. Certainly all kinds of tricks are more generally fine for maybe drums/pop music mixes but can often make solo piano sound less realistic.

Volume certainly seems very good (dynamic range etc.. nailed it!).

To me, that's a lovely sound, gorgeous piece! In later years you'll most often be thankful to have given 'just one more' parse through the critical mill - even if we think "good enough". To me, there's always a logarithmic last mile 'almost always' worth hiking further up

Fantastic to hear, thank you! - wishing you absolutely the best with Pianoteq, in music, on earth - and in space!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors