Topic by aWc

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Topic: realistic damper noise level

I listened to a lot of piano recitals lately, including a live one by Charles Richard-Hamelin (playing a great sounding Steinway D), and I was struck by how loud the damper noise was (I was in the balcony for CRH, a good 25 meters from the piano!). He was playing the Chopin Preludes, and when he released  notes, followed by silence, I very clearly heard the "bzoinnng" produced when dampers fall back on strings.

I checked many presets in Pianoteq, and they generally are set at 0dB for damper noise, which results in virtually no audible effect (to my ears, at least). I tried most of the ptq models and found out that, in order to hear the same level of damper noise I perceive from acoustic piano performances, I have to push the values in the order of +15dB or more! Indeed, the Steinway D model (with damper values maxed out) really nails the effect I heard in concert! The Steingraeber model seems to have the least amount of that characteristic sound, but it may be that is the way the actual piano is!

I am puzzled as to why the damper noise is set so low by default in Pianoteq. What do others think? Do you crank up damper noise in your presets?

Last edited by aWc (01-06-2021 22:44)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

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Reply by Qexl

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Re: realistic damper noise level

Heya aWc,

my take is that most presets are streamlined for ease of recording and playing, in line with most dpiano and other products. The 'sit down and play' experience probably aiming for very tasteful regulated piano for most cases without tampering with noises (which could seem problematic in some recording situations mostly).

If a new Pianoteq user who only has experience with a typical dpaino's internal sounds, notices more pronounced realistic piano mechanical noises, to many (some high percentage I guess) will hear it as 'low quality' and 'what is with all this swooshing and booming?' - resulting in "this is not a nice as my dpiano".

I think also, if I'm any guide to what others do, turning up reverb on some presets to improvize with, can make noises seem more part of the overall sound, so perhaps it's a reasonable practice to keep them tucked in (at least for main default presets).

To many new to real pianos, and new to VSTs, not too aware of the controls etc., any stand-out noise which might need to be lowered for recording can be seen as permanent and a problem. (a lot of people don't get as far as saving their own presets and feel "I should just be able to use the default" - I've seen this even among professional musicians who expect 50 presets and no need to do anything themselves - I'd like to see that become a thing at some future point, to perhaps better satisfy all customers).

Anecdotally on the forum, more seem to show up to say "does a real piano really have so much noise?" - so can probably sense an aesthetic choice where Philippe might err on the side of caution about introducing too much pedal or other cabinet noises into, at least main default presets.

More characterful presets may push these noises higher - but at least we have this choice with a few sliders.

I totally get that each piano is very different, some with very loud mechanics compared to others - and I love some very noisy pianos! but I guess the underlying.. overarching goal for main defaults is probably 'least necessary noise'

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Reply by aWc

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Re: realistic damper noise level

All very good points there Qexl. I think however that a distinction can be made here.  Mechanical noises such as the key action and the pedals are mostly an inevitable consequence of the piano build and probably inversely related in intensity with the quality of the instrument, i.e. the best acoustic pianos have the least amount of such noises. And, of course, a good piano recording would tend to minimize the action and pedal noises. Instead of emulating them in a virtual piano,  one could very well wish to eliminate or minimize them. I am certainly not a fan of those trendy sampled pianos with clunky, intentionally deteriorated pedal noises that abound on certain solo piano playlists...

The damper "noise" seems to me a bit of a different kettle of fish: it's really more a part of the instrument's tone itself because the strings are being excited and harmonics are being generated. Most importantly, if we can hear it even at quite a distance from the piano, a recording will/should certainly include it as well.
I experimented yesterday by increasing damper noise around +15dB on my Steingraeber/Bechstein/Steinway B morphed preset and I really enjoyed the feel of it.
I did not hear it as a "separate effect" and tended just to forget it was there, but seems to me I felt more connected with the sound. To be followed...

EDIT: By damper noise, here, I mean the sound created when dampers fall back on the strings on key release. well, of course, the sustain pedal depression (dampers coming off the strings  also makes that "whoosh" sound which has harmonic content, but seems to me it excites all the damped strings at once and is more of a noise....but don't shoot me, I am getting out of my expertise range now....

Last edited by aWc (02-06-2021 18:08)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

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Reply by dklein

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Re: realistic damper noise level

How do you control damper noise?  I increased it in the Note Editor, but +15 didn't seem to be an option.  More like +6 or so was near the top of the scale.

- David

Reply by aWc

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Re: realistic damper noise level

Which version do you have? I use Pro,and  I can get more than +20dB (if you click at the top of a note's yellow bar, the value is displayed).

dklein wrote:

How do you control damper noise?  I increased it in the Note Editor, but +15 didn't seem to be an option.  More like +6 or so was near the top of the scale.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

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Reply by dklein

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Re: realistic damper noise level

You're correct.  I just rescaled to 21.35.

I think that I hadn't waited more than a split second, as that's what it takes to update the number value even though the bars have been raised.

- David

Reply by Qexl

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Re: realistic damper noise level

I don't disagree in any way - definitely enjoy the damper sound raised, can feel more realistically like sitting at a real piano.

It's been a setting I don't tend to edit - so thanks aWc for this prompting

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors