Suggestion: Lo-fi Pianos

Of course it's a kind of paradox to want to achieve lofi sounds with Pianoteq but one could also say that Modartt opened this door with the age/wear slider

I do love the pristine sound of Pianoteq instruments but I  am also all for a lo-fi sound!
I even wanted  to post a similar thread.

There is in particular one feature that I would love in Pianoteq.
Some of the actual nostalgic or lo-fi sounding piano libraries seem to use something which has to do with pitch shifting, time stretching and then then transposing the note back.

For example this is what Jeremy Larson from Teletoneaudio says about his great sounding Postcard Piano:

Another example is the Alt Piano from Westwoodinstruments (which also has a very nice felt version).
It has a parameter called Transpitch:

I made some trials with Pianoteq, a  pitch shifter plugin, and then simply midi-transposing the note back.
Doing this only, leads already to quite nice results and a completely different basic timbre.
From there one can add a tape plugin with wow and flutter control as well as some modulation and maybe a filter and get great results.

But instead of pitch-shifting the whole instrument, I would really love to be able to pitch shift on a single note level.

And this is exactly what I would love to see in Pianoteq:
The ability to pitch shift / time-stretch each note and then midi-transpose it back to the wished pitch

Sure I am aware that this pitch shifting thing has to do with sample manipulation which is not directly Pianoteqs field, but well this is only a suggestion

Interesting... I once imagine a gramophone disc made with pianoteq recordings of forum members's performances.

Many old recording was made direct on the disc, with the instrument or the singer very close to the horn. The horn was a kind of primitive microphone. Why not add a emolation like this to the microphone collection?

Most people imagine a gramophene recording as terrible, but most times it's due the recording they listened was very worn, runned/played too much times. Some well preserved recordings sounds decent.

Cool idea jblongz,

for old-timey piano sounds, I sometimes use the Flanger (mix 100%) for vinyl warp (set speed to 45 or 78 to match rotation of old disks - I think that's fun starting with - and of course the cycle/speed of warp can be changed, grooves run longer-->shorter as the needle heads to the center of the disk.. but adjust to tastes), and trial between Fuzz and Amp for grit (or scratched old 78 kind of needle sizzle) and if going back into the past as far as we can, use the Tremolo with super fast setting and soft but angular 'teeth' for some electronic 'warble' like can be heard on terribly old recordings (tape hiss/wow/flutter in one).

I've been able to also get a kind of tone-arm boom with that too (and some sub EQ) - but it's possibly not as aesthetically cool as the other FX overall, but if there were more slots for more FX it would be something I'd add.

Here's an FXP I made around 2018 on a different piano, but updated it to the Bechstein DG a few years ago - just checked it when reading your post and which I hope you can enjoy as it is today for your purposes (I shared it with a couple of others but don't think I ever uploaded the FXP - sorry if I did - but this is updated)..

FXP "Roaring 20s" for the Bechstein DG (but, copy it, paste it into other pianos)

C. Bechstein DG - Roaring 20s.fxp

Audio

Qexl-roaring-20s-snippet-A.mp3

Another seeming to me a little later in era - using the Pianoteq 1922 Erard for apropos juice..

FXP "1925"

Erard - 1925.fxp

Audio

Qexl-1925-snip.mp3

Forward to the 60s, here's one (I made many variants for different pianos - each mostly suited to personal project purposes over the years). I thought this one might be the most versatile of these - for the Bechstein DG again. (I like also a Bluthner version but decided to make this one for the forum)

FXP "60s Broadcast"

C. Bechstein DG - 60s Broadcast.fxp

Audio

Qexl-60s-broadcast-snip.mp3

Still in the 60s - 70s range - inspired by Delia Derbeshire a piano for Daleks perhaps.

FXP "Amass Effects" - for Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano.

Grotrian - Amass Effects.fxp

Audio

Qexl-Amass-Effects-snip.mp3

Other things to try is layers, using toy piano along with amp/fuzz/delays - you can absolutely never run out of low-fi options.

Hope that's all a bit of useful weekend fun and inspiration for anyone who wants to squeeze some sweet low-fi juice out of Pianoteq

P.S.

By the way for anyone reading who doesn't yet know about user-made presets or how they can be used here's a quick recipe you may like to know.. if you have loaded any preset you would like to use but would like to use it on a different piano, copy it using the icon top right in Piantoeq's interface, then load your choice of replacement base piano, then click paste with the other icon. It's an easy way to hear essentially the same tweaks but done to another piano (might be preferable for a project or more to your liking etc.) - save the ones you like for later.

The condition slider is arguably the best 'one stop shop' for achieving better realism, on down through barroom piano craziness.  :-)

Those examples give a good indication of the type of sounds you are seeking teacue - thank you I like those.

I adore audio stretching (using recorded instruments at different 'tape speeds', sometimes at extremes) and have enjoyed this using piano recordings - but this is something I've mostly done in the DAW using various tools (and tape, in those earlier days).

Definitely can see the possibilities of Pianoteq allowing a further array of FX (maybe like a scroll button which allows some extra FX possibilities, one-click 'doubling' with width/tape/other physics applied to beat typical currently available phase/flange/chorus type doubling tricks etc.)

For right now though, in Pianoteq, to get some nearness to your examples teacue, these things I love doing are certainly worth trying out..

* press/hold the limiter "L" button and adjust sharpness/threshold/gain - this balanced with compression can soften and meld a kind of push/pull between compression and the limiter's kind of 'exciter'-like settings. Can add some studio-like velvety sense, from subtle to extreme. With a deep threshold and high gain experiment with that sharpness for the grunge/smoothness.

* using the 'Layers' tool (one piano panned left, the other right, to taste, as wide or narrow as desired etc.) for doubling with intent to widen, soften and 'glitch' up. Treat each layer like you would each track in a recording or do what other basic plugins do.. for example, one side with 100% mixed flanger, the other unaltered - kind of like the way some real-world old-school 'chorusing' on a stomp-box level.. I remember one of my first guitar chorus pedals was a clean left signal with a wavering right signal - so simple and possibly exactly the kind of 'glitch' which would make some old-school people smile

* in output/mics pane, expand stereo width nearer extremes (again remember layers, no limits to what mixing up the stereo field of 2 instances can do in a glitchy sense).

* use 3 layers - think of a Left, right (both as wide as you like) and 1 mono or quasi mono in the center pan position. This is like 'Mid/Side processing' (or the way I emulate it in Pianoteq). Fabulous results IMHO. For example, clean full EQ range piano in the middle, quasi mono or mono.. left side piano a combo like described above.. mixed wide, duelling with the right side's tremolo/phasing and so on.. also, those wide 2 could have all the reverb, the center signal quite dry or with a short cabinet kind of reverb. Or, glitch them all up so they're deep-fried in batter

* still in that output/mics pane, play with 'speed of sound' - different to 'slow tape' but can make some subtle differences esp. if layering as above.

* Even with 1 layer, line up a chorus with phaser and flanger - experiment with gut-feel to timing the ebs and flows, or use some maths to line up seconds/millisec numbers so you hear waves from each tool colliding, or not, precisely to a beat.

I enjoy this kind of thing - hoping these ideas are helpful (although I know they're not scratching the surface of what's possible, nor what's to come).

I honestly feel it is doable to attain as deeply cool new sounds with just Pianoteq with some of those kinds of techniques above - hope this gives you some inspiration to make some excellent sounds (with and without other plugins - never would I say abandon those other tools).

This stuff can seem to be too much learning curve if not something of interest - but if you're already making hip-hop or glitch-hop etc. in a DAW and interested in production techniques to give an edge or uniqueness etc.. these are welcome finds within Pianoteq I hope you'd agree.

Just thought to post this idea too (sorry if I posted before I cannot remember for sure and am out of time), since people who like to tweak Pianoteq may read through..

Open Layers, and for each layer, just click "random" button. 3 layer surprise - try using it in a song or background. Re-click random for any layer you don't think fits, you can create unbridled variants of pre-production ready pads or accents for all kinds of songs or loops. Easy - maybe with a fairly high burn rate - but so quick. If you get something which sounds like a real keeper - edit it further and save it as your own preset.

Cheers teacue.

Definitely recommend to not give up experimenting when the inspiration strikes - I've managed to swap a lot of routine DAW templates out for bespoke Pianoteq standalone presets.

You are right, time is a factor - but now I have many presets close to all kinds of sounds I might want to use, that saves even more time in the long run. I will often still run them through other FX when recording for sure - some presets may be just about right, others will benefit from stretching or other plugins.

BTW - I like the ideas you put forward - the per-note stretching (pitching up/transposing down, or vice versa) - and perhaps in future some physics could apply to that - or tape emulation. All very interesting to consider.

It is a good goal Philippe had all those years ago to allow for creating beyond realistic pianos - and who knows, in future updates new and interesting concepts inspired by your request could be introduced - so I sincerely thank you for your valuable and interesting thread

Something about the mix I like a lot Andreya - nice tasty bass lines too.

It's fascinating how a processed piano part can make up so much of the overall experience - and that shows that very well.

I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank Modartt for the amazing features, Qexi and others for the tips.  I spend so much time playing lofi tones in Pianoteq that I forget to produce music.  It's such a pleasure, and I'm thrilled about what Pianoteq will evolve into over the years. I have a lot of popular brands of sample libraries and a few other modeled, but I am most satisfied with what Modartt has provided. 

Thanks again!

Thank you - That's so cool, after quite a long time-line too. I think Modartt folks will be happy to see you're enjoying Pianoteq

I'm thankful too, to you, Modartt and all here (a genuinely fun thread). Still inspired practically daily by Pianoteq here.

You're a natural cool talent JB and an all 'round decent chap. All my best to you!

Should add (because I feel it) I like what you've done with your website, and hope things are really zooming. Enjoyed your piano playing btw (among other accomplishments incl. cool multiple instrumentations, fine productions etc.).

Nice of you Keys! Thank you.

Have had the United Audio marketing newsletters taunting me all this month

I'm probably going to break and end up getting the full version - has 'warble' control which is not in the freebie but also, full ver has final output gain control as well as of course more choice (and I think actually nicer results for more variety/fine tuning things). But - good free plugin indeed for a little (or a lot) quick/easy analog hype.

I haven't yet bought these (or leapt on the freebie) because I've over-satisfied all my needs in re these types of tools (for me they didn't add to my workflow, only kind of tempt me to not get as creative in my own way with more editable tools with more control) - but they are easy to use and can make it so that really, probably most users don't need to fuss with infinite options in tape emulators to get a desirable sound.

Any such simplification of processes, to enable exceptionally easy usability like that however does come at the expense of, I believe anyway, some good amount of choice (not a snob thing - a genuine creative necessity), and effectively also some realism. But that won't concern many I'm sure.

I really enjoy one of their other tape products, Studer A800 Multichannel Tape Recorder plug-in

There's also a 'gang control' in the Studer 800 plugin, which means you can place an instance on as many tracks as your projects have, and control them all from one instance (think getting the broad kind of sound you wish to hear by the end).. but not to limit us, once basically happy, you can turn off 'ganging' and further individually tweak each track's tape unit to suit their own individual tracks if desired (like a little more/less, some different tape speed for drums, or more sparkly tones for a certain instrument) etc. It's handy - and may save a lot of time bothering with super specific EQ plugins (in analog times, for sure, you may EQ too on the strip - but if you have the option to put sizzle on tape, you may not want to lift trebles with EQ.. just a 'do two things with one action' kind of comfort). This (and maybe about 3 other tape plugins I really think get 'old-school' emulation into a particularly realistic range) have their use cases - some do better with certain instrumentation, or for a certain 'market/genre'.

I don't turn to that plugin for heading toward Lo-Fi so much though.. but nothing wrong with a nice tape wrapper on anything really.. I guess it's worth blathering on some more for anyone curious..

There's also 'Tape' from Softube - emulates 3 different pretty fine tape machines, but instead of a 'gang' control, has a similar way to work in Studio One (on the 'MixFX' insert). For glitch sounds, it saturates pretty hard, pretty quick - like the compressor claps out in a not-too-harsh kind of way, leaving a nice flat ceiling with that vintage burn.

Plenty of plugins are out there emulating more particularly glitchy tape types.. in like cheap cassette players etc. - but the world of glitched audio is full of so many amazing saturation/tape plugins, seems actually would be difficult to list even a short-list of fav ones.

Quick aside - kind of like tape saturation inre Lo-Fi.. this got my attention today..

This morning, got wind of this nice saturation sim, Bad Speaker from Softube. I have tomorrow to check it out - but it solves a lack of 'speaker' break-up in 'digital saturation' (at least it sounds and looks to do that), so far. Don't want to read too much into it just yet (haven't heard enough yet).. but hoping this scratches a long-time itch of mine.. I have all the circuitry emulations I need but, other than 'cabinet simulations' (aimed at guitar use-cases but.. no rules!), I don't have something which alone deals with 'that kind of side of distortion' which is not so much about driving internals, but 'what the speaker' does.

If anyone likes the sound of that kind of speaker driven glitch, it is also in a good Lo-Fi leaning bundle the Dirty the Bad the Wasted - Softube collection bundle - I have already the Wasted Space 80s-like reverb (actually does take me back to the 80s). But - there's a 'Dirty Tape' plugin in this bundle, which is why I mention all this here really. I don't have that but like the 'Tape' one, for glitch use-cases, it seems to have a nice 'collapse' when driven (I just imagine it easy to run of dozens of loops with it, with less need to tame things in a longer workflow). Anyway - nice pack if you want a glitch toolkit going pretty authentic in the retro sense. I'll probably cross-grade just to get the Bad Speaker one in the end.

Actually - on seeing this nice old thread again, and Key Fumbler's helpful link - I ended up quickly going through some tape plugins I use (and some others) to give any curious readers here a little bit of inspiration perhaps.

It should be stated though.. that these audio files are quick and dirty Lo-Fi leaning uses of these kinds of tape plugins - and if you kind of like aspects of one or another maybe that'll help you decide if you want to go grab a tape emulation plugin to get Lo-Fi things in that range. It's possible to push things to even more glitchy Lo-Fi oriented 8bit kinds of sounds too.. but with nice glowing saturations which can make very plain glitch piano more creamy and dreamy.

Caveat though.. none of these are meant to make the piano sound 'nicer', nor more perfect, nor more realistic.. it's all about that kind of Lo-Fi leaning recording domain.. It often happens that people mistake this.. "well that doesn't make the piano sound more realistic" - not supposed to do that.. if anything most of these are what I call 'pushed' or 'hyped' - just hoping to solve a few people scratching their head and thinking "Wow tape sounds awful"... but of course, you can use various of these tape plugins really respecting 'good practices' of old.. and get some tastefully delicious or nearly completely in-obvious top-shelf politeness from them too - but that's not what these are 'hyped' to kind of showcase..

List of tape emulation audio examples (same 20 second block of piano) with no other FX. The source piano is the default Grotrian "Recording 2" preset:

Piano-loop-no-tape-CLEAN.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Mix-Checker-Pro.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Porta-Cassette-Studio-One.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Kiive-Tape-Face.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Softube-Tape.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Tone-Empire-ReelightPro.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-UAD-Studer-800-Tape-Recorder-A.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-UAD-Studer-800-Tape-Recorder-B.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-WavesFactory-Cassette-A.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-WavesFactory-Cassette-B.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Waves-Abbey-Road-J37-A.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Waves-Abbey-Road-J37-B.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Waves-Abbey-Road-J37-C.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Waves-Abbey-Road-J37-D.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Waves-Kramer-Tape-A.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-iZotope-Ozone-Vintage-Tape.mp3

Some great tape machines of old incorporated various kinds of echos (extra read head trickery), slapback, ping-pong and the Abbey Road one probably gives the most options both quite realistically and in some artistically exciting ways. Nothing stopping anyone from leveraging that 'real' kind of machine created sound with other FX.

These 2 below are some 'multi FX' combinations made up with up to 6 other FX types to further take the sound into sound design territory (I think of these FX arrays for use in a track building, using the source more like an electronic 'pad' than piano and each of these 2 are rather like starting points for further working into a piece. I guess genre would be something unclassified at this stage of those 2, but could go in a lot of directions, if playing more or different parts etc. They're not finished things in short but give an idea of how you can use digital tools to get Lo-Fi granular FX and "soften" them up somewhat with tape emulation plugins.. really nice to 'smear' any particularly clippy digital choppiness.)

Piano-loop-tape-Personal-multi-FX-A.mp3
Piano-loop-tape-Personal-Multi-FX-B.mp3

Hope anyone thinking about this stuff can get a feel for how Pianoteq is an absolute dream for processing for all kinds of music, and Lo-Fi, Glitch, Electronica of all kinds - just so much better than struggling with other software pianos.. both easier, smaller in footprint, more editable, more playable and did I mention it's good? Well, anyway - I think it's still the one virtual instrument keeping my focus even after many years now. SO good imho.

Qexl,
I listened through your examples, thanks for sharing - I've made my own comparisons over the years. You should try the Chow Tape in my link, it's pretty easy to get very similar results to the UAD tape sims with a bit of adjustment. If they put the full version of the UAD into a half price sale I might be tempted eventually. The freebie is nice for fast results. So many ways to get warm and wobbly already but the UAD is well worth having.

Despite my comment in the last post sometimes a very subtle hint of faux tape colouration or iron transformer effect can warm up a mix without going into this lo-fi territory and will probably still appeal to those folks desperately trying to get away from these imperfections back in the day - not that that is anything to do with intentional lo-fi!

My personal preference in lo-fi is at the somewhat exaggerated warm and overly wobbly end rather than the harsh destroyed end in your later examples.
Harsh glitches are not redolent of a bygone era for me - I cannot drift away to anywhere!

Boards Of Canada got it right most (if not all) of the time. It's almost as if the music becomes meditative through all the grunge.

Anyway interesting experiments.

Wow, timely mention of of ChowDSP, I have been following his GitHub for months now while studying DSP theory.  If any devs from Modartt are reading this, have you seen any of Christian J. Steinmetz's talks about new methods to abstract/extract DSP profiles via neural networks specifically for audio fx?  It's worth exploring his papers and repositories.

Anyhow, after much experimentation with Pianoteq settings and the golden tip from Qexi about flanger use, I've come up with some interesting lofi-ish tones and started uploading them to the FXP Corner.  I hope to inspire someone.

Another free options is https://www.samplescience.info/2023/03/...rator.html

For me, it really took a something like Pianoteq to form a variety of different tones that these fx plugins can extend.

The future is both bright and dusty

Pianoteq plus the Air Flavor Pro plugin is Lo-Fi heaven!
Bonus is it nails the LoFi drums too!
Highly recommend this combo!
https://www.airmusictech.com/effects/flavor-pro/