Topic by Jake Johnson

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  • Jake Johnson
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Topic: Only one mic on the piano in this set of Erroll Garner videos?

Hard to believe, given the sound. There could be overheads out of sight from the camera, however, and in the second set, the bass mic could be picking up the piano, too.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kZSkNBU9Q&t=1410s

See 0:54 for one of the few good shots of the mic in the first set. Regardless, nice sounding Bechstein for this, yes?

EDIT: And listen to Kelly Martin's drums. Only one mic there, too, it seems.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (22-02-2021 01:01)

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Only one mic on the piano in this set of Erroll Garner videos?

Two small diaphragm mics on this Earl Hines recording, also from the 60's. Seem to be in places that I wouldn't expect. No mic near the hammers, but it sounds crisp and percussive. And it's another Bechstein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaD4qwztS5M

(You can see the 2nd sd piano mic at 6:23.)

The common thread, here, in case people wonder, is in trying to emulate that older jazz piano sound.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (22-02-2021 02:04)

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Only one mic on the piano in this set of Erroll Garner videos?

A lot to love about this sound (performances pretty much out of this world too).

The production people at Reelin' in the Years seem to have done really fine work on the source material (which may have been mono? - just a hunch based on nothing specific to say for sure). I do suspect I sense both sort of low-fi original source tape spoilage mixed with higher frequency later 80s tape hiss. (hinting the archival process may have happened in the tape era?). Maybe contacting the production co would be something to try for some info on it, Jake? (they may not want everyone to know the secrets tho, since it's their line).

Awesome also for its overall musical EQ and dynamics/compression - even deeply crowded sections, some ideal piano voicing still delivers a clear line or lucid stack of harmonies without ear busting crunch (bass, piano crashing bass notes too, and drums - a big pile of sound which doesn't *flinch).

This does inspire me to try a few vintage preset ideas for sure - will probably consume some time over the coming months here and there.

Off the top of my head, I'm imagining using a single mic in Pianoteq, or several balanced mics (also worth trying just the mono out first maybe) to a track in a DAW first.

Then there are quite a few ways to apply stereo to that, without just clicking on a digital stereo image widener.. maybe by bouncing the mono to 2 stereo tracks and panning those (not just any DAW does this.. some do panning well, others without the finesse of console based pan pot behaviour) - so maybe I'd apply a simple tool like "Dual Pan" in Studio One, to the 2 new stereo tracks..

For example,

stereo track 1, with L with 100% L + 67% R
stereo track 2, with R at 100% R + 67% L

That's almost always my starting point when I do make mono to stereo this way. Adjusting from there to get a sense of width without really changing overall vintage mono feel. (I also might apply "Mix Tool" and select to neutralize any DC offset - rarely necessary tho.. sometimes just add that without checking because no harm).

Will try keeping the mono track, and placing the new slightly wide stereo tracks together.. and using some Mid Side processing with different compression for both Mid and the Sides, to finish. (that can be used to flatten things - or boost the center of the signal, or push signal further outward also without disturbing the mono sense of the stereo image).

Making a straight up mono vintage C. Bechstein preset referencing the vid seems like a great project idea. Definitely would begin with a vintage EQ variant with a mono mic or mono output selected - and go from there! (no limits on possibilities).

And beyond that, absolutely love how this band, the music, style, the tightness and fluency of it, all works like such magic. Followed a vid link to the documentary where one of his bassists during a 5yr stint, explains a lot about the way the band was winging every show (no rehearsals - just following the mercurial Erroll Garner chops as best as they could. "What's that new intro Erroll's playing now.. what key is it going to land in?.. GO!)


Fantastic to hear, inspiring, thanks Jake.


[Edit to add: *flinch]

Last edited by Qexl (22-02-2021 06:43)
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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Only one mic on the piano in this set of Erroll Garner videos?

In this television broadcast, the sound may not be as good, despite the two mics, but in the last half, Hines demonstrates the history of jazz piano, from ragtime to walking 10's to later, with close views of the piano. Humbling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0H70zycJno

Last edited by Jake Johnson (22-02-2021 14:17)

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

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Re: Only one mic on the piano in this set of Erroll Garner videos?

Apparently, as great as PIANOTEQ software is, none of any of its pianos —including the Bechstein in it— will let someone accurately replicate the sounds from the Bechstein that was used in your video post (above), that in the exact manner the piano was originally recorded by the jazz legend Erroll Garner.

Just as you cannot completely remove a software piano lid, you cannot today get the exact sound out of the recorded Bechstein into any of the PIANOTEQ Bechstein piano presets or even possibly some of your own no matter how hard you’re attempting to customize!

Have to say it just ain’t doable in the software today, because you ain’t ever gettin’ the lid now pictured on the software Grand C. Bechstein DG off it, well, at least in version seven (v7) anyway!

Although Erroll Garner was truly innovative and greatly admired as a pianist, he was also considered self taught.  And, he learned from Earl whom he heard.

Whom I saw at a jazz workshop that was of course sometime ago in Oakland, California.  (I used to attend it before I had been accepted into the United States School of Music at Norfolk, Virginia.)  Earl “Fatiha” Hines came sometime by the workshop as he offered up some of his inspiration to others who were learning to play.  (Incidentally I left a kit of practice pads to one of the drummers before I went onto Norfolk.)

While at Norfolk I failed to graduate.  Even when I as a youth had competed in and won in state and national competitions, I had just been too long away from formalized education to succeed at and become finally graduated by the government run school in Virginia.

Now maybe with the help of forum members and posts like yours, Jake, I’ll eventually learn a thing or two about microphone setups and other stuff such as the lidless piano used in the video recording.  (Ironically, I’m unable to match {still} the sounds of that Bechstein to the selfsame brand {Bechstein} that’s represented inside PIANOTEQ, just as stated earlier, even if I’ve been previously guided by all of the instructions in the Workshop available at this site.)

I imagine however people have their reasons whenever they choose to record a piano without the lid, whether from a single mic as you suggest or possibly more suggested by Qexl.  Perhaps what is needed is more openness permitted in forum discussions and where a greater representation of various people might surface some anticipated changes to the software faster, only to include firstly the very basics like a common loop feature, since you’re going to play and record MIDI anyhow and likely build your own next piano based on primarily the data you will observe from that MIDI inside PIANOTEQ:

https://youtu.be/FkpyyhEpQmc

Take care.

If anyone is interested this post of mine went through several edits before this one.  So I’m saying to anybody wanting to see something carved in stone, you may just have to look elsewhere  —other than anywhere my posts are entered at this forum.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (27-02-2021 21:57)
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