Topic: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Hello friends!
I am once again in doubt regarding the expression used in the description of the new physical model of Steinway D from New York:

"It also offers the very first physical model of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument: the Model D Spirio | r. Based on recordings from the renowned Steinway Hall in New York, it provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression."

If Pianoteq is 100% Physical Modeling and is not based on samples (recordings), what is the meaning of the phrase "based on recordings" for Pianoteq?

Can someone explain to me?

Last edited by Professor Leandro Duarte (25-12-2020 06:46)
Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

You're maybe getting into semantics.  Although, some action noises are possibly still samples.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

Hello friends!
I am once again in doubt regarding the expression used in the description of the new physical model of Steinway D from New York:

"It also offers the very first physical model of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument: the Model D Spirio | r. Based on recordings from the renowned Steinway Hall in New York, it provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression."

If Pianoteq is 100% Physical Modeling and is not based on samples (recordings), what is the meaning of the phrase "based on recordings" for Pianoteq?

Can someone explain to me?

The physical modelling consists in a set of equations which contain many physical parameters (among which string properties, soundboard impedance, etc.). These parameters are adjusted in such a way that the output of the model (what you hear in Pianoteq) is as faithful as possible to the piano which is being modelled, and this is evaluated by comparing to the recordings of that piano (hence the words "based on recordings").

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

If I remamber well some noises algo got modelled in later versions of pianoteq
Philippe, do you confirm?

By the way, about noises, I was checkinhg some things about Stewart & Sons extended keyboard range, and some people told that the last keys was so high frequency that would be almost impossible for a piano tunner to proper set on tune. And other people said that if was near impossible to a piano tunner, it would be nearly impossible to people to notice in case the keys get somewhat out tune.

Pianoteq Extended range for Steinway-D have the deppest bass, but Stuwart & Sons extended have some more extended trebble :

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I suspect that it's easier to get if it's in or out tune if we remover the strong noise present in the deep trebble, but it would no longer be a true piano as we know, without such noises.Besides, without such noises the sound get weird and weak for these last keys.  It's interesting how the noises also get amplified a lot by the soundboard in a real piano, since we hear it even when far away from the paino, like in a concert room.
Philippe, what about that teaching moment only you can do?
:-)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

You're maybe getting into semantics.  Although, some action noises are possibly still samples.

Last edited by Beto-Music (25-12-2020 14:50)

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

You're maybe getting into semantics.  Although, some action noises are possibly still samples.


Thank you, Philippe Guillaume! I am very pleased with your response!

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

Hello friends!
I am once again in doubt regarding the expression used in the description of the new physical model of Steinway D from New York:

"It also offers the very first physical model of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument: the Model D Spirio | r. Based on recordings from the renowned Steinway Hall in New York, it provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression."

If Pianoteq is 100% Physical Modeling and is not based on samples (recordings), what is the meaning of the phrase "based on recordings" for Pianoteq?

Can someone explain to me?

The physical modelling consists in a set of equations which contain many physical parameters (among which string properties, soundboard impedance, etc.). These parameters are adjusted in such a way that the output of the model (what you hear in Pianoteq) is as faithful as possible to the piano which is being modelled, and this is evaluated by comparing to the recordings of that piano (hence the words "based on recordings").

Not sure if you can comment on this, but I am curious how do you account for the reverb of the recording room and the characteristics of the microphone used to record the sound? Is the recording in an anechoic chamber? What kind of microphone is used and in which position?

Thanks,
Osho

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Beto-Music wrote:

If I remamber well some noises algo got modelled in later versions of pianoteq
Philippe, do you confirm?

Yes, I confirm. The most important changes in that regard during the past years were the modelling of the sustain pedal noise (the "whoosh" produced when raising the dampers) in full connection with the sympathetic resonances, and the hammer noises being also fully modelled.

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

oshogg wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

Hello friends!
I am once again in doubt regarding the expression used in the description of the new physical model of Steinway D from New York:

"It also offers the very first physical model of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument: the Model D Spirio | r. Based on recordings from the renowned Steinway Hall in New York, it provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression."

If Pianoteq is 100% Physical Modeling and is not based on samples (recordings), what is the meaning of the phrase "based on recordings" for Pianoteq?

Can someone explain to me?

The physical modelling consists in a set of equations which contain many physical parameters (among which string properties, soundboard impedance, etc.). These parameters are adjusted in such a way that the output of the model (what you hear in Pianoteq) is as faithful as possible to the piano which is being modelled, and this is evaluated by comparing to the recordings of that piano (hence the words "based on recordings").

Not sure if you can comment on this, but I am curious how do you account for the reverb of the recording room and the characteristics of the microphone used to record the sound? Is the recording in an anechoic chamber? What kind of microphone is used and in which position?

Thanks,
Osho

We use several mics at several positions, from very close to moderately distant. Mic types may vary depending on the situation. Some examples giving good results: Schoeps omni MK2, Neumann KM130, DPA 4006. The very close mics provide precise information, quite dry by nature because the ratio direct sound/ reverb is high in that case (we used an anechoic room in the case of the Perof recordings, but it is not mandatory). The close mics provide a more comprehensive feeling of the timbre/color, and the distant mics tell how the piano sounds in its environment.

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

If I remamber well some noises algo got modelled in later versions of pianoteq
Philippe, do you confirm?

Yes, I confirm. The most important changes in that regard during the past years were the modelling of the sustain pedal noise (the "whoosh" produced when raising the dampers) in full connection with the sympathetic resonances, and the hammer noises being also fully modelled.


A 100% modeled piano; sounds like a piano and behaves like a piano. This is amazing!

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Yes, maybe Modartt should change the reference of modeled to 100% Modeled, or Fully Modeled or Trully Modeled... For example, some pianos are called modeled but have core sound based on samples, with algorithms to create variances. Even Roland V-piano wasn't trully a modelled piano.

There were two piano softwares called as modeled, took low HD space, but was just sampled based plus algorithms.
Some people got cats instead of rabbits :

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Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

A 100% modeled piano; sounds like a piano and behaves like a piano. This is amazing!

Last edited by Beto-Music (26-12-2020 22:17)

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Beto-Music wrote:

If I remamber well some noises algo got modelled in later versions of pianoteq
Philippe, do you confirm?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Yes, I confirm. The most important changes in that regard during the past years were the modelling of the sustain pedal noise (the "whoosh" produced when raising the dampers) in full connection with the sympathetic resonances, and the hammer noises being also fully modelled.

Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

A 100% modeled piano; sounds like a piano and behaves like a piano. This is amazing!

Have to be with all due respect clear...  I personally want to avoid semantics and clear up any possible ambiguity.  You have to realize just any small number of noises regularly made by a piano of course cannot account for all sounds, and from all the piano models. 

Be real!

(I am in no way mocking anyone’s advertising.  My point is: no need to under appreciate an idea that of a modelled instrument now put forth, obviously!  However, it just might depend on an introductory period for a musician to become completely familiar with bourgeoning terminology if he is to conceptualize anything at last that was itself maybe recently only in its infancy.  I allege that since it could early on stand some developing, it was entered into the software market before it became mature to the point where it is of course today, and, way long before many are aware of it even possible.  Numerous new ideas often come before technological advancements will turn them into something end users can lastly appreciate at their desktops.)

Modelled and Sampled are jargon to an industry.  In it they appear loosely interchangeable whether the software you appreciably call a piano is mainly a result of modeling tech or sampling tech.  (You see it and play at it as you do any other piano instrument.)  And, let me say that is in itself remarkable as the definition of your piano is changing.

To the industry today a modelled piano which has samples is still a reference in terms that, it has been modelled er produced in a specific manner largely, although its rolling casters were excluded effectively from the undertaking, and importantly.  I sometime like to present an argument of my own: if an instrument can’t permit you to detach its lid fully, when you would like to record it alongside another in a duet it ain’t really a piano!  Equally, I like this one: if you don’t get a truly infinite number of velocities possible out of it, that doesn’t honestly replicate acoustic piano actions in all the true to life behaviors or the real world interactions produced by alive human beings having the alternatives the acoustic pianos fingered (struck) by those at the non-digital keybeds, musically. 

(Thusly, digitals might fail miserably to reproduce the vast magnitude of authentic acoustic piano tones in abundance simply because of industry chosen limitations, specifically, the velocities read out of most consumer grade keybeds necessarily accompanying the digitals, but shortcomings software fails also to address.  Oddly, industry people appear more than just inconvenienced momentarily by the demands of the artist gearing towards fast approaching technology.  They seem all too eager to dismiss the validity of artistic expression rediscovered in even the most famous works of the arts.  Musical pieces which require always literally thousands of intricate piano tones from the player to perform them.  But, long accepted industry wide regulations set by corporate members and their representatives are currently abstricting such.)

Man, am I really now expected to get an impression of vivace out of possibilities (127) particularly because only they’re no more than what’s been industry standardized, and by corporate big wigs resistant to the change of winds er specifically percussion (instruments)!  (Smile.)

No, that’s my response.  I got now same as always some of my own polarizing to do!  However, you may want to pronounce Tomato or Potato!

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (27-12-2020 06:22)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

If I remamber well some noises algo got modelled in later versions of pianoteq
Philippe, do you confirm?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Yes, I confirm. The most important changes in that regard during the past years were the modelling of the sustain pedal noise (the "whoosh" produced when raising the dampers) in full connection with the sympathetic resonances, and the hammer noises being also fully modelled.

Professor Leandro Duarte wrote:

A 100% modeled piano; sounds like a piano and behaves like a piano. This is amazing!

Have to be with all due respect clear...  I personally want to avoid semantics and clear up any possible ambiguity.  You have to realize just any small number of noises regularly made by a piano of course cannot account for all sounds, and from all the piano models. 

Be real!

(I am in no way mocking anyone’s advertising.  My point is: no need to under appreciate an idea that of a modelled instrument now put forth, obviously!  However, it just might depend on an introductory period for a musician to become completely familiar with bourgeoning terminology if he is to conceptualize anything at last that was itself maybe recently only in its infancy.  I allege that since it could early on stand some developing, it was entered into the software market before it became mature to the point where it is of course today, and, way long before many are aware of it even possible.  Numerous new ideas often come before technological advancements will turn them into something end users can lastly appreciate at their desktops.)

Modelled and Sampled are jargon to an industry.  In it they appear loosely interchangeable whether the software you appreciably call a piano is mainly a result of modeling tech or sampling tech.  (You see it and play at it as you do any other piano instrument.)  And, let me say that is in itself remarkable as the definition of your piano is changing.

To the industry today a modelled piano which has samples is still a reference in terms that, it has been modelled er produced in a specific manner largely, although its rolling casters were excluded effectively from the undertaking, and importantly.  I sometime like to present an argument of my own: if an instrument can’t permit you to detach its lid fully, when you would like to record it alongside another in a duet it ain’t really a piano!  Equally, I like this one: if you don’t get a truly infinite number of velocities possible out of it, that doesn’t honestly replicate acoustic piano actions in all the true to life behaviors or the real world interactions produced by alive human beings having the alternatives the acoustic pianos fingered (struck) by those at the non-digital keybeds, musically. 

(Thusly, digitals might fail miserably to reproduce the vast magnitude of authentic acoustic piano tones in abundance simply because of industry chosen limitations, specifically, the velocities read out of most consumer grade keybeds necessarily accompanying the digitals, but shortcomings software fails also to address.  Oddly, industry people appear more than just inconvenienced momentarily by the demands of the artist gearing towards fast approaching technology.  They seem all too eager to dismiss the validity of artistic expression rediscovered in even the most famous works of the arts.  Musical pieces which require always literally thousands of intricate piano tones from the player to perform them.  But, long accepted industry wide regulations set by corporate members and their representatives are currently abstricting such.)

Man, am I really now expected to get an impression of vivace out of possibilities (127) particularly because only they’re no more than what’s been industry standardized, and by corporate big wigs resistant to the change of winds er specifically percussion (instruments)!  (Smile.)

No, that’s my response.  I got now same as always some of my own polarizing to do!  However, you may want to pronounce Tomato or Potato!

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you meant Amen Ptah Ra, but anyway, speaking about semantic, we still use a few samples as described in the manual which I quote here: "Natural instrument noises (sampled or modelled) including action key release noise, damper noise at key release (bass notes) and sustain pedal noise: pedal velocity dependent “whoosh” produced by the dampers rising together from the strings or falling down". Sampled "whoosh" are used in some historical instruments.

Re: O que modartt significa com "Baseado em gravações"?

Soon or later someone will ask to a djust the noises to fit to the Condition slider, like make the piano main lead produce noises, like a old door creaking, when opening or closing. Or creaking noises like a old pedal that almost stuck etc....

I wonder what effect the Condition slider do more: Soundboard cracks, out tune, oxidated strings, copper wrapped not tight enough to the main string (creates buzzing sounds).
Soon or later someone will also ask option tho shose the proportion of such effects.