https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tesy80wwR0
So the piano used on so many rock hits was a century-old C Bechstein with distinctive hammers and action. Has an FXP ever been done to recreate this particular piano?
(First post, thank you for your kindness.)
Interesting question and documentation.
There are not a lot of FXPs for the Grand C. Bechstein DG in the FXP corner.
None of them seem to match the references you pointed to.
Considering how different the pianos sound in the documentation a lot of FXPs would be needed, almost one for each song.
I would be indeed very interested to hear what the advanced users in this forum could create.
Well, it's a nice idea.
But how to start???
Modartt would need a very clean recording, maybe from some of these dozen albums, where the piano sound was almost alone, and natural, without much equalizer of studio effects.
The best luck would be try to find some classical recordings made in that studio with this Bechstein.
And maybe even more important, also try to find a C. Bechstein from the same mode&size, same years, and analyze. This would be a starting point. After analyze and have FXP as close as possible (also using adjusts only available in Modartt programing station), they would compare with the clearest recordings they could find.
But keep on mind this Bechstein at trident studios was probably under different tunning and adjusts along years, as the taste of different bands.
I found this now : (requires account to play):
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/76s0N...FOF2Wl1EBF
The video's commentary about heavy action... I'm not so sure if a heavy action it's so much responsible for the strong loud sounds. Someone with a given power in hands would be able produce a stronger hammer strick with a light action than with a heavy action, The heavy action may give less controll for soft playing, creating preference less preference for it. Or am I wrong??
Heavy hammers can carry more potential energy, if you manage to move it fast, creating more energy in string strike. But not all heavy action (heavy feeling) it's due heavy hammers, as it can also be from low lead weight used to balance keyboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tesy80wwR0
So the piano used on so many rock hits was a century-old C Bechstein with distinctive hammers and action. Has an FXP ever been done to recreate this particular piano?
(First post, thank you for your kindness.)
Thanks for this great post. And the answers by teacue and Beto-Music.
Wonderful piano with an incredible pedigree. Should have been sampled before it was restrung.
Luckily another unique piano survived by way of sampling: the CBS grand used for Glenn Gould’s Goldberg Variations and Miles Davis’ Kind of Blue. It was sampled by CineSamples as “Piano-In-Blue”. Would be great if Modartt could bring a model of this to Pianoteq.
Interesting question and documentation.
There are not a lot of FXPs for the Grand C. Bechstein DG in the FXP corner.
None of them seem to match the references you pointed to.Considering how different the pianos sound in the documentation a lot of FXPs would be needed, almost one for each song.
I would be indeed very interested to hear what the advanced users in this forum could create.
Looking at the characterization of "century-old", I would think to start with the 1899 C Bechstein in the Kremsegg Collection!
Kremsegg's Bechstein it's old but it's crossed strings, Like the Bechstein of Trident Studios.
But there might be other features in the Trident Bechstein, not available in the Kremsegg version, since Trident it's a decade younger or more.
In your place I would try to morph the Kremsegg Bechstein with some of the modern Bechstein. Alter hammer hardness and velocity curves, to get a "heavir feeling and impact", to start.
teacue wrote:Interesting question and documentation.
There are not a lot of FXPs for the Grand C. Bechstein DG in the FXP corner.
None of them seem to match the references you pointed to.Considering how different the pianos sound in the documentation a lot of FXPs would be needed, almost one for each song.
I would be indeed very interested to hear what the advanced users in this forum could create.
Looking at the characterization of "century-old", I would think to start with the 1899 C Bechstein in the Kremsegg Collection!
Lennon smoking while sitting at the piano. This looks well worn, but not 100 years old! I have inquired of Jaques Samuel, the rental company, if they have a record of the serial number of the piano or any other information.
Kremsegg's Bechstein it's old but it's crossed strings, Like the Bechstein of Trident Studios.
But there might be other features in the Trident Bechstein, not available in the Kremsegg version, since Trident it's a decade younger or more.
In your place I would try to morph the Kremsegg Bechstein with some of the modern Bechstein. Alter hammer hardness and velocity curves, to get a "heavir feeling and impact", to start.
dvunkannon wrote:teacue wrote:Interesting question and documentation.
There are not a lot of FXPs for the Grand C. Bechstein DG in the FXP corner.
None of them seem to match the references you pointed to.Considering how different the pianos sound in the documentation a lot of FXPs would be needed, almost one for each song.
I would be indeed very interested to hear what the advanced users in this forum could create.
Looking at the characterization of "century-old", I would think to start with the 1899 C Bechstein in the Kremsegg Collection!
If somebody in this forum have friendship with Paul McCartney, he could be of help, recreating the piano as it was for Hey Jude. Get Back to the piano he once belong.
Jokes aside, don't forget to adjust string lenght, since it was reported as a full lenght concert grand.
ft the Trident Bechstein got heavy damage while moving, and the sound neve became the same again after repair job, it's possible to virtually restore it, like Modartt did with very old vintage pianofortes of KiVIR project. Let's supose one wood board strip that compose the soundboard was replaced, after crack broke. Knowing what strip was damaged, it's possible to use this information on virtual repair. And also use as reference other Bechstein of same model & year, and audio recordings.
Hey, I found this. t's in portuguese, but strangelly it says the Bechstein used by McCartney to record Yesterday was from 1907, and was sold in a action in 2014 for just US$94,9.000.
https://musica.uol.com.br/noticias/efe/...94-mil.htm
This could really be a very interesting project. The problem, not to mention authorization & access in a pandemic time, would be time and money.
Strange... maybe the buyer just quit...
It also says two jackets used in the movie Help, one by Ringo and one by Harrison was sold for US$75.9 and US$75.9 respectively.
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Wikipedia has the same story, sort of:
During the shooting of Help!, a piano was placed on one of the stages where filming was being conducted and McCartney took advantage of this opportunity to tinker with the song. Richard Lester, the director, was eventually greatly annoyed by this and lost his temper, telling McCartney to finish writing the song or he would have the piano removed.
So, not the same piano. It is surprising they could track down this very random piano and auction it off.
In the comments to the YouTube video I included in the OP, the maker of the video says that he was contacted by the present owner of the piano, who said that the damage has been exaggerated in the retelling. I mention this more to point out that there is a slim connection to the current owner and location of the instrument.
If somebody in this forum have friendship with Paul McCartney, he could be of help, recreating the piano as it was for Hey Jude. Get Back to the piano he once belong.
Jokes aside, don't forget to adjust string lenght, since it was reported as a full lenght concert grand.
ft the Trident Bechstein got heavy damage while moving, and the sound neve became the same again after repair job, it's possible to virtually restore it, like Modartt did with very old vintage pianofortes of KiVIR project. Let's supose one wood board strip that compose the soundboard was replaced, after crack broke. Knowing what strip was damaged, it's possible to use this information on virtual repair. And also use as reference other Bechstein of same model & year, and audio recordings.
Hey, I found this. t's in portuguese, but strangelly it says the Bechstein used by McCartney to record Yesterday was from 1907, and was sold in a action in 2014 for just US$94,9.000.
https://musica.uol.com.br/noticias/efe/...94-mil.htm
This could really be a very interesting project. The problem, not to mention authorization & access in a pandemic time, would be time and money.Strange... maybe the buyer just quit...
It also says two jackets used in the movie Help, one by Ringo and one by Harrison was sold for US$75.9 and US$75.9 respectively.
Hope this Bechstein Layered preset "Trident" (after the studio) proves enjoyable for others.
It will require both the recent C. Bechstein DG and the 1899 C. Bechstein grand piano in the Pianoteq Schloss Kremsegg historical piano collection #2.
For this, I'm mostly influenced by David Bowie's Hunky Dory album sound, the piano played by Rick Wakeman (one of my fav albums and Rick's piano work should be on a gold record shot into space IMO).
Audio:
Each loose noodling improv snip displaying some possibilities in tonal range, reminiscent of recordings from the Trident studios.
a)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-a.mp3
b)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-b
c)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-c
d)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-d
e)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-e
f)
Qexl-Trident-improv-moment-f
The FXP presets:
Qexl Trident - Bechstein fantasy studio piano (Regarding the famous piano at Trident studios).
[Edit to add layers..]
Also uploaded the 2 layers (Haven't uploaded ver. 7 layered FXP yet.. so in case these are needed).
[End edit]
The 2 layers are like Beto mentions (modern & vintage Bechstein pianos - one of my fav things to do with layers).
In general,
layer 1 is the modern C. Bechstein DG, with cumulative years of my EQ tweaks on-board (cut and pushed - designed in this case to allow deep bass and high trebles).
Layer 2 is the vintage C. Bechstein from 1899, with mainly some bump in mid tonal qualities & 'grit' from enabling the "Amp" in effects, reverb tone treble increase to give a sense of plate and chamber reverb of the era (for the "vintage studio" vibe).
Each has many alterations, incl. tuning (one I tweaked from Hummel 2, which I feel gives good match for guitar tracks due to the minute intonations - I feel that these studio pianos made similar tweaks.. more a hunch than anything - and mine might be more sour in certain keys - but it's just an artsy re-jig of a quasi equal temperament.. if it's not suited to a piece, it's easy to just put both layers' presets back to Equal or other temperament of choice).
To easily manage the overall sound.. in essence, if you want more saturated 'vintage' tones, in the Layering panel, you can change the balance of these 2 pianos. Within an overall range, I've so far found small-ish balance alterations to be capable of producing a very boxy 60s to 70s vintage album sound, or a fairly complex dreamy neo classical studio sound.
The FXP provided has a certain balance I like for playing the "Hey Jude" kind of sound - but I really LOVE also a 86/80 balance which can suit more classical pieces (like nocturnes - just listened to Chopin's Db maj 27/2 ah!).. those numbers just allow more trebles to ring through (than old Beatles style recordings). Different balances will suit different styles - it's been a few days of fun experimenting and finding it suits my purposes well for mixing and playing in the room alike.
With further tweaking, anyone with Standard and Pro could totally re-balance and make EQ and other edits to produce something truly personalized.
Hope it's enjoyed, at least as a starting point. (this has quickly become one of my fav presets for that type of 'album sound').
Cheers to all.
[Edited to correct "Wakefield" to "Wakeman" and "noddling" to "noodling" above]
Hope this Bechstein Layered preset "Trident" (after the studio) proves enjoyable for others.
THANK YOU, Qexl!
You're super welcome Fleer!
Really glad that you saw this post
Wow, great sounds Qexl, thank you!
Hi Philippe,
thank you so much - I'm so glad you like it
Can't stop playing the new ver. 7 - so complete!
Thanks for your incredible work as always - phenomenal to have the tools to make these presets. So proud of you and the whole Modartt team and all the beta folks - incredible magic.
Hope this Bechstein Layered preset "Trident" (after the studio) proves enjoyable for others.
Thank you so much!
David Bennett, the maker of the YouTube video, sent me a message saying that he is going to contact the current owner of the piano. If anything comes of it, I will make sure to keep everyone informed. It would be nice to get more precise information about the piano, the damage it suffered, and its current condition/location.
Edit to add - snippet C, letting the sound die away for 30 seconds and it just continues on with no artifacts, a beautiful example of the power of modeling.
That's so good of you @dvunkannon - thank you.
Always knew I loved the piano in all those albums (IIRC in the first vid linked a wall covered in album art).. it's pretty fantastic to follow along on your lead there with the owner - look forward to any news that follows.
[Edit to add meta edit... edit below ]
Edit to add - snippet C, letting the sound die away for 30 seconds and it just continues on with no artifacts, a beautiful example of the power of modeling.
Yeah, good observation, it's fabulous, the tails.. the snip could have been longer too - love hearing it calm to nothing. Luscious stuff Pianoteq.
For this, I'm mostly influenced by David Bowie's Hunky Dory album sound, the piano played by Rick Wakefield (one of my fav albums and Rick's piano work should be on a gold record shot into space IMO).
Sounds great Qexl! I am gonna try it right now!
PS You mean Rick WAKEMAN....lol! Big fan here (wasn't easy to admit during the punk/new wave era
Bechstein got rehab.
Sounds very good.
Cheers aWc and Beto
Glad you enjoy it - I'm stuck on it a while and not sure I even want to make more edits to it.
Sounds great Qexl! I am gonna try it right now!
PS You mean Rick WAKEMAN....lol! Big fan here (wasn't easy to admit during the punk/new wave era
And regrettable "AH!! - did that again?" - swapping the 2 Ricks' names since younger days. Thanks aWC I'm'a go edit it! *with sincere apologies to the Ricks.
@ Qexl
Nice sound indeed, thanks
Thank you teacue,
so happy knowing you're enjoying it
That YC5 - Rock is pretty good too!
Thank you Fleer,
I enjoy that rock YC5 preset for playing around with a generally naive Elton John inspired feel. Not too treble heavy unless it's really struck and fills softly in a mix when played at low velocities - glad you like it. (real happy about the future of the FXP corner - should be many more interesting individualistic pianos there in time).
For the Layer tool you can adjust volume along keyboard range, using note edition, if you want more of a given key range from one instrument than from another. It it requires to increase the volume, in note edition, of the more desired instrument sound, and reduce the sound (note edition) for the instrument you wish less in that specific range.
So it's two adjusts... Uhnnn... Like showed in pianoteq manual
I propose a singe volme adjust like the one in note edition, just for the layer tool. If we would raise the volume in A instrument, the B instrument would get the reverse adjust for that range.
Maybe we should not call it special Volume, but Layer Note Edition.
Since layerring it's simple compared to morphing, and layering can be made by other softwares, this tool would give pianoteq layer tool a advantage and even more practicality.
The problem it's when we want to layer 3 instruments or more.
Thank you Fleer,
I enjoy that rock YC5 preset for playing around with a generally naive Elton John inspired feel. Not too treble heavy unless it's really struck and fills softly in a mix when played at low velocities - glad you like it. (real happy about the future of the FXP corner - should be many more interesting individualistic pianos there in time).
Another nice idea Beto. I like that.
Note though for anyone new to Pianoteq reading, it's not always necessary to note-edit volumes if the 2 pianos - it can be something to carefully do by hand (and using "control note" tool inside the note-edit pane makes smooth lines/curves easy) - but having a mirrored edit to other layers (fractional if more than 3?) would help with faster volume zone editing.
Wikipedia has the same story, sort of:
During the shooting of Help!, a piano was placed on one of the stages where filming was being conducted and McCartney took advantage of this opportunity to tinker with the song. Richard Lester, the director, was eventually greatly annoyed by this and lost his temper, telling McCartney to finish writing the song or he would have the piano removed.So, not the same piano. It is surprising they could track down this very random piano and auction it off.
In the comments to the YouTube video I included in the OP, the maker of the video says that he was contacted by the present owner of the piano, who said that the damage has been exaggerated in the retelling. I mention this more to point out that there is a slim connection to the current owner and location of the instrument.
Beto-Music wrote:If somebody in this forum have friendship with Paul McCartney, he could be of help, recreating the piano as it was for Hey Jude. Get Back to the piano he once belong.
Jokes aside, don't forget to adjust string lenght, since it was reported as a full lenght concert grand.
ft the Trident Bechstein got heavy damage while moving, and the sound neve became the same again after repair job, it's possible to virtually restore it, like Modartt did with very old vintage pianofortes of KiVIR project. Let's supose one wood board strip that compose the soundboard was replaced, after crack broke. Knowing what strip was damaged, it's possible to use this information on virtual repair. And also use as reference other Bechstein of same model & year, and audio recordings.
Hey, I found this. t's in portuguese, but strangelly it says the Bechstein used by McCartney to record Yesterday was from 1907, and was sold in a action in 2014 for just US$94,9.000.
https://musica.uol.com.br/noticias/efe/...94-mil.htm
This could really be a very interesting project. The problem, not to mention authorization & access in a pandemic time, would be time and money.Strange... maybe the buyer just quit...
It also says two jackets used in the movie Help, one by Ringo and one by Harrison was sold for US$75.9 and US$75.9 respectively.
Wikipedia has the same story, sort of:
During the shooting of Help!, a piano was placed on one of the stages where filming was being conducted and McCartney took advantage of this opportunity to tinker with the song. Richard Lester, the director, was eventually greatly annoyed by this and lost his temper, telling McCartney to finish writing the song or he would have the piano removed.So, not the same piano. It is surprising they could track down this very random piano and auction it off.
In the comments to the YouTube video I included in the OP, the maker of the video says that he was contacted by the present owner of the piano, who said that the damage has been exaggerated in the retelling. I mention this more to point out that there is a slim connection to the current owner and location of the instrument.
Beto-Music wrote:If somebody in this forum have friendship with Paul McCartney, he could be of help, recreating the piano as it was for Hey Jude. Get Back to the piano he once belong.
Jokes aside, don't forget to adjust string lenght, since it was reported as a full lenght concert grand.
ft the Trident Bechstein got heavy damage while moving, and the sound neve became the same again after repair job, it's possible to virtually restore it, like Modartt did with very old vintage pianofortes of KiVIR project. Let's supose one wood board strip that compose the soundboard was replaced, after crack broke. Knowing what strip was damaged, it's possible to use this information on virtual repair. And also use as reference other Bechstein of same model & year, and audio recordings.
Hey, I found this. t's in portuguese, but strangelly it says the Bechstein used by McCartney to record Yesterday was from 1907, and was sold in a action in 2014 for just US$94,9.000.
https://musica.uol.com.br/noticias/efe/...94-mil.htm
This could really be a very interesting project. The problem, not to mention authorization & access in a pandemic time, would be time and money.Strange... maybe the buyer just quit...
It also says two jackets used in the movie Help, one by Ringo and one by Harrison was sold for US$75.9 and US$75.9 respectively.
In the very unlikely event this piano still exists. It would not sound the same anymore anyway. Apparantly towards the end it was restrung, but never sounded the same after that. They could never get the same tone back.