Topic by bnsonger47

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  • bnsonger47
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Topic: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

I'm not the best when it comes to manual dexterity and the organ. My fingers become thumbs.

That being said, I do a lot of step-time editing (entry) and have done so since 1986 using a variety of software along the way (for instance, my first was Deluxe Music Construction Set). I do some editing so it doesn't sound so "mechanical". I'm terrible about capturing anything in real-time.

So, I have a couple of questions? First, is there a demo MIDI file available that I could use to look at how things are set up for use with Finale? If not, does anyone know how to set up the score (order of parts, etc.)?

Right now, I'm using a bass voice for the pedal (top line of the score) and three other vocal parts for the manuals (P, GO, R - top down). With this arrangement, the bass line maps to Pédale as channel 1. Channel 2 maps to the Positif, channel 3 to Grand Orgue, and Récit to channel 4. This arrangement allows me to have four keyboards but is somewhat restrictive in that there is much use of ledger lines since all but the bass voice are written in the treble.

Reply by ericwongmusic

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Re: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

bnsonger47 wrote:

I'm not the best when it comes to manual dexterity and the organ. My fingers become thumbs.

That being said, I do a lot of step-time editing (entry) and have done so since 1986 using a variety of software along the way (for instance, my first was Deluxe Music Construction Set). I do some editing so it doesn't sound so "mechanical". I'm terrible about capturing anything in real-time.

So, I have a couple of questions? First, is there a demo MIDI file available that I could use to look at how things are set up for use with Finale? If not, does anyone know how to set up the score (order of parts, etc.)?

Right now, I'm using a bass voice for the pedal (top line of the score) and three other vocal parts for the manuals (P, GO, R - top down). With this arrangement, the bass line maps to Pédale as channel 1. Channel 2 maps to the Positif, channel 3 to Grand Orgue, and Récit to channel 4. This arrangement allows me to have four keyboards but is somewhat restrictive in that there is much use of ledger lines since all but the bass voice are written in the treble.

I used Finale with Organteq as well. Just for checking the score notations are all correct, not for complicated stop changing or selecting coupler. Since I will export to MIDI file for Logic Pro to work with those MIDI commands.

In my Finale score, I use the instrument Organ (3-staff) or Organ (2-staff) with Organteq. In the ScoreManager, I assign each MIDI channel to 2 layers in an instrument. This let my notation flexible for two voices on each hand. My Organteq MIDI Channel is GO (Channel 1), Recit (Channel 2), Posit (Channel 3), Pedal (Channel 4)

Example for Organ (2-staff):
GO to Layers 1 and 2;
Recit to Layers 3 and 4.

Example for Organ (3-staff):
GO to Layers 1 and 2;
Recit to Layers 3 and 4;
Pedal to Layer 1.

I give up Posit because I mainly use Finale to produce musical score, not audio file. After finishing the score notation, I will work on the audio file with Logic Pro to add MIDI messages in the track to control Organteq in details.

However, if you do not need to concern the printout of score, you can create a score with 2 Organ (2-staff) and 1 Organ (3-staff) and assign in this way:
GO to the first Organ (2-staff);
Recit to the second Organ (2-staff);
Posit to the Organ (3-staff) for Hands;
Pedal to the Organ (3-staff) for Pedal.

Screenshots and print out for your reference:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i3k7h2nl7wlr...NP6oa?dl=0

Reply by songpoet

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Re: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

Realizing that there are many different ways to create sequences to play Organteq, I want to share my approach which allows me to remain in a scoring environment yet have all the control I would have playing an actual pipe (or digital) organ.

I was a long time user of Cakewalk (which became Sonar) simply because I've always enjoyed working with MIDI, not only for the notation but also for the ease in editing.  One serendipitous day, Cakewalk offered Sonar users a chance to purchase Notion.  I took advantage of the special price and ordered Notion.  It never arrived and to this day I've wondered whatever happened to it.  The introductory offer by then had expired and Cakewalk could only refund my purchase. So I took a chance and contacted Notion Music who graciously honored the special after the fact.  Long story short, I managed to get my hands on the software and it changed my life.

Similar to Finale, Notion is notation based software which gives you control over a score graphically (as opposed to looking at waveform in most DAWS.  It has a feature not available in any other software allowing for even more control:  the nTempo staff.  On it you specify the note values you wish to control. Then you can "perform" the Notion file either live (in real time) or record your tempi overdubs using your computer (or MIDI) keyboard.

Because I work with Rodgers Organs in several churches I've learned they map their manuals and pedal to MIDI using this convention:

Swell (Récit) - Channel 13
Great (Grand Orgue) - Channel 12
Chorus (Positif) - Channel 15
Pedal (Pédale) - Channel 14

In Notion I've created a template with separate parts (tracks) for each manual and the pedal and assign the parts to control Organteq using the above channel assignment.  In Organteq I created a 4 keyboards layout with the same channel assignments.  Because each part (except the Pedal) is a grand staff I can freely assign or change whichever clef I need.

The same keyboard I use to enter the notes allows me to select different presets, control the Swell and Crescendo pedals and, thus, control Organteq as if I were actually playing an organ.

Because I can do everything within Notion I don't need to export the MIDI to a separate program.

In case you are interested, PreSonus (who bought Notion Music) offers a competitive crossgrade and Finale qualifies.

What I have gleaned from this approach is the ability to remain in the "creative" zone without getting distracted by the technology.

Best regards,
songpoet

Last edited by songpoet (30-01-2021 22:29)

Reply by bnsonger47

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Re: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

Thanks for sharing how you do things. It is interesting that there are so many ways to accomplish a goal.

Here is what I do within Finale so that I can export a MIDI file suitable for use within Organteq.

I build a special ensemble with Finale. I use Bass for the pedal, Voice for the positiv, Alto for the GO, and Soprano for the Recit. Yes, I know that generally means my manuals are always in treble clef but that is no big deal. Then, I export to MIDI as a type 1 file. In Organteq I set up my registrations. It may look a bit odd but, strangely, with this method I do not use couplers. If I want the Recit coupled to the Positive, I just have notes on both voice lines.

Keep in mind that I'm doing step time editing as opposed to real time. Why? In order to better control the articulation. Of course, that means using multiple layers on a staff (which can get confusing) but it all comes out sounding as I like.

I create hymn accompaniments for Organteq which I use to play back during Zoom sessions with members of a class that I teach.

Going further, from Organteq I creat a sound file that I drop into my Keynote slide on which I display the texts.

I was wondering if there were another way using a standard organ setup within Finale (I'm a Mac user and have been since 1984) so using a Windows application is just not for me. Yes, at one time I was a certified Windows Server Administrator and really didn't like the Windows environment. Still, when I'd get home, I'd sit at my Mac and do what I wanted to do.

Thanks, again, for the input. It was excellent.

Reply by christopherjhoh

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Re: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

In Finale, it's easy to create expressions that change the midi channel.  I make them with a "hidden" font style so they appear on screen but not in a printed score.  So then you would not need to assign different layers to different channels.  Usually in an organ score if you were changing manuals you would have a marking anyway; you could combine those indications, e.g. "Swell," with the channel selection.  But I find it more convenient just to have a second marking, e.g. "chan=5," so that I can always see what's going on.  Note, I've only experimented a little with Organteq, but I have a lot of experience with Finale and other organ sounds.

Reply by bnsonger47

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Re: Using Finale with Organteq: Step-Time Editing

christopherjhoh wrote:

In Finale, it's easy to create expressions that change the midi channel.  I make them with a "hidden" font style so they appear on screen but not in a printed score.  So then you would not need to assign different layers to different channels.  Usually in an organ score if you were changing manuals you would have a marking anyway; you could combine those indications, e.g. "Swell," with the channel selection.  But I find it more convenient just to have a second marking, e.g. "chan=5," so that I can always see what's going on.  Note, I've only experimented a little with Organteq, but I have a lot of experience with Finale and other organ sounds.

Interesting aspect you've presented. I hadn't thought of that. Yes, you are correct, the regular 3-staff organ scoring would work if the appropriate keyboard assignments were noted.

So, now my question is this: What Finale tool do you use to make the appropriate markings? And, is there any other setup-like thing to do in Finale so that the plain old MIDI file exports correctly. I will gladly provide a link to a Finale MUSX file as well as a MIDI file of the same piece.