Topic: Sound quality with monitors

Hello dear Pianoteq users. I am having hard times with sound quality when using my studio monitors with Pianoteq. When I am using headphones sound quality is excellent, but when I am using my studio monitors ( Presonus Eris) sound is "boxy" and dull. Piano recordings sound very nice when listened trough monitors so they shouldn't be the issue. I believe this is something to do with my midi controller and velocity curve. I am using Casio CDP-230 and velocity curve that is recommended for Casio CDP-130. Can anyone help me with better velocity curve or other recommendation to improve sound quality.

Re: Sound quality with monitors

kihar wrote:

Hello dear Pianoteq users. I am having hard times with sound quality when using my studio monitors with Pianoteq. When I am using headphones sound quality is excellent, but when I am using my studio monitors ( Presonus Eris) sound is "boxy" and dull. Piano recordings sound very nice when listened trough monitors so they shouldn't be the issue. I believe this is something to do with my midi controller and velocity curve. I am using Casio CDP-230 and velocity curve that is recommended for Casio CDP-130. Can anyone help me with better velocity curve or other recommendation to improve sound quality.

could you please tell me the headphones you use ? thank you

Re: Sound quality with monitors

A headphone sounding better than a studio monitor?
All headphones I ever tested did not sound good for piano (digital piano or piano softwares), despite some was from good brands.

Suggestions:

-Test the studio monitors with high quality piano recordings. like from pianoteq audio demos n their website.
-Test again, now with real piano high quality recordings.
-Check the setup on pianoteq adjustments. Try different piano models.
-Read the entire instrunctions manual of your studio monitor.

Re: Sound quality with monitors

Hello. I have tested with recordings made with Pianoteq and also other recordings. Recordings sound absolutely fine with monitors, but my own pianosound sound muffled and boxy with monitors. I usually use Nokia BH-905 headphones and occasionally my vintage Sennheiser HD-425 headphones and they both sound fine.

I am using Focusrite DAC so it shouldn't be an issue.

Any recommendations with velocity curve?

Re: Sound quality with monitors

How is your system connected?
Is the monitors connected direct in the PC output or it's connected in other way, or in the output of your digital piano?

Try to run midi files for piano. This way you can repeat the midi while try to make adjusts in the velocity curve on pianoteq.

kihar wrote:

Hello. I have tested with recordings made with Pianoteq and also other recordings. Recordings sound absolutely fine with monitors, but my own pianosound sound muffled and boxy with monitors. I usually use Nokia BH-905 headphones and occasionally my vintage Sennheiser HD-425 headphones and they both sound fine.

I am using Focusrite DAC so it shouldn't be an issue.

Any recommendations with velocity curve?

Re: Sound quality with monitors

Beto-Music wrote:

A headphone sounding better than a studio monitor?
All headphones I ever tested did not sound good for piano (digital piano or piano softwares), despite some was from good brands.

Suggestions:

-Test the studio monitors with high quality piano recordings. like from pianoteq audio demos n their website.
-Test again, now with real piano high quality recordings.
-Check the setup on pianoteq adjustments. Try different piano models.
-Read the entire instrunctions manual of your studio monitor.

For recorded music I find listening on speakers much more realistic than listening with headphones. Even if listening with headphones is more detailed I can't imagine myself in a concert hall or in front of a piano.
However when I play with pianoteq, my headphones (HD-540) give me a wonderful feeling of realism that I don't find when listening on speakers (JM LAB).
Moreover, listening to pianoteq headphones is very much better than listening to the internal sound of the FP-10 piano I use. Headphone with pianoteq is really a great great experience for me.
These are mysteries of psychoacoustics...
But I don't know how is listening with monitors, is it really better than speakers of a hifi system ?

Re: Sound quality with monitors

YvesTh wrote:

But I don't know how is listening with monitors, is it really better than speakers of a hifi system ?

Like I said many times here, one key element for me is proximity. Proximity is essential to minimize delay so the player feels connected to the sound...even feel the bass vibration in the keyboard (in my setup I do!). In contrast to hifi speakers,  "near-field monitors" are designed to be listened to at close range. That, plus the fact that they can be quite small (and still have a decent bass extension) allows for easier placement in the right spot. Active monitors (with built-in amplification) can provide a better match between amp and speakers, as well as providing a cleaner set up (for example in a living room environment).

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Sound quality with monitors

I think the onboard speaker of my digital piano have a feature that only works for the internal sounds. One seller once told me some ROland pianos, the ones which a single speaker of same type for right and left, have a adjustment to make it work better for graves on the left, and works better to the trebble in the right. I feel the internal sounds have deeper/louder and more powerfull bass on the left speaker, compared to piano sounds I connected to the sound input of the digital piano.
Maybe the left speaker it's adjuested to a slight louder and with equalization filter to enhance bass, but I suspect this supposed filter do not work  for sounds comming from the sound imput. Or perhaps the filter was already applied to the sound samples of the internal piano instruments banks.

I wonder if Modartt could create a filter to do something similar. A filter to enhance bass power to the left channel, and to enhance trebble to the left channel. Of course, digital pianos with better speakers would not need it. See the image bellow.

A simple speaker on digital piano (circles in the black bar between piano legs):

PunBB bbcode test

Digital piano with mare variable speakers :

PunBB bbcode test

YvesTh wrote:

For recorded music I find listening on speakers much more realistic than listening with headphones. Even if listening with headphones is more detailed I can't imagine myself in a concert hall or in front of a piano.
However when I play with pianoteq, my headphones (HD-540) give me a wonderful feeling of realism that I don't find when listening on speakers (JM LAB).
Moreover, listening to pianoteq headphones is very much better than listening to the internal sound of the FP-10 piano I use. Headphone with pianoteq is really a great great experience for me.
These are mysteries of psychoacoustics...
But I don't know how is listening with monitors, is it really better than speakers of a hifi system ?

Last edited by Beto-Music (17-11-2020 22:33)

Re: Sound quality with monitors

kihar wrote:

Hello dear Pianoteq users. I am having hard times with sound quality when using my studio monitors with Pianoteq. When I am using headphones sound quality is excellent, but when I am using my studio monitors ( Presonus Eris) sound is "boxy" and dull. Piano recordings sound very nice when listened trough monitors so they shouldn't be the issue. I believe this is something to do with my midi controller and velocity curve. I am using Casio CDP-230 and velocity curve that is recommended for Casio CDP-130. Can anyone help me with better velocity curve or other recommendation to improve sound quality.

I'm using Genelec monitors which sound quiet well with my Piano software (PianoTeq, Garritan etc.)
but the sound was improved a lot when i connected a Genelec Subwoofer.

Re: Sound quality with monitors

kihar wrote:

Hello dear Pianoteq users. I am having hard times with sound quality when using my studio monitors with Pianoteq. When I am using headphones sound quality is excellent, but when I am using my studio monitors ( Presonus Eris) sound is "boxy" and dull. Piano recordings sound very nice when listened trough monitors so they shouldn't be the issue. I believe this is something to do with my midi controller and velocity curve. I am using Casio CDP-230 and velocity curve that is recommended for Casio CDP-130. Can anyone help me with better velocity curve or other recommendation to improve sound quality.

kihar wrote:

I have tested with recordings made with Pianoteq and also other recordings. Recordings sound absolutely fine with monitors, but my own pianosound sound muffled and boxy with monitors. I usually use Nokia BH-905 headphones and occasionally my vintage Sennheiser HD-425 headphones and they both sound fine.

When you describe playing recordings of piano that sound fine on your speakers, are these being played on the same computer, through the same audio interface and amplifier as Pianoteq?

If not, look to what is different.

If that's all the same... OK, dumb idea maybe, but... try adjusting (probably turning up) the volume of your speakers.  I've found that I, at least, have an expectation for how loud a given amount of force on the keys should sound.  If the volume is wrong, the piano sounds wrong, even though it's the same sound, just softer or louder.

Re: Sound quality with monitors

I settled for headphones (AKG K702) for private playing long ago, being always dissatisfied with the loss of detail and immediacy from a number of different speakers and amplifiers (never tried powered near-field monitors though).

The problem, in my opinion, is the room reverberation, however large or small, that adds too much coloration to the already somewhat colored and boxy speakers sound with its limited dispersion pattern. This hides the fine details in Pianoteq (or Organteq) by putting you in another environment. Headphones let you hear what the simulation offers at its best even though it is imprisoned inside your skull….

As an example, I made a small comparison rendering a two minute Brahms intermezzo by switching every 15 seconds between the eight main grand pianos, in the Pianoteq menu order, from NY Steinway D to Bluethner. Contrary to version 7.0.3 version 7.0.4 has a short silence between the presets making the change easy to hear.

I’m using the empty hall reverb layer preset I posted about a while ago.


First a dry sound, with all pianos solo, letting you hear (with headphones) their characteristic colour:

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...%20dry.mp3


Then from about the middle of an empty concert hall. Notice how they all sound much more similar, except the very colorful C. Bechstein that stands out.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...20hall.mp3


The same thing in reverse order since the Bluethner is not favored by being at the end of the piece in the previous example.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...0order.mp3


This shows that in this somewhat extreme situation, the room is what you hear, not the individual instrument so much. I think that's what happens when playing through speakers (opinions may vary of course, no problem!) 


After listening for a while to these eight instruments with a variety of classical MIDI files, I must say I understand why the Steinway D is the preferred instrument for large concert halls. There is something to its regularity of tone that makes it better in this situation, and in Pianoteq the NY Steinway D is indeed my favorite!

Re: Sound quality with monitors

Gilles wrote:

After listening for a while to these eight instruments with a variety of classical MIDI files, I must say I understand why the Steinway D is the preferred instrument for large concert halls. There is something to its regularity of tone that makes it better in this situation, and in Pianoteq the NY Steinway D is indeed my favorite!

I never play the D at home, but I record most everything I do using it, after I've played the tune on something else.  Because it sounds good on recordings, but the live sound?  I prefer anything but.
Do you run Stage version?  That is a bit limiting afaic but again, the recording sounded fine.

Last edited by peterws (28-11-2020 00:22)
I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Sound quality with monitors

peterws wrote:

Do you run Stage version?  That is a bit limiting afaic but again, the recording sounded fine.

I have Pro, so no limits for me...