Topic by sigasa

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Topic: Attempt at creating a felt piano

https://forum.modartt.com/file/5vuu6p5x

A bit of fun. I decided to have a go at creating a felt piano / celeste piano based on the U4. As I write, I'm thinking there may well be a Celeste pedal option in the U4 but am not sure. I shall look later. Anyway, I lowered the three hammer hardness sliders to 0 and adjusted the hammer noise volume and damper pedal noise volume and chose medium hall reverb.

Maybe this thread may stimulate others to attempt the same???

Thoughts?

Warmest regards,

Chris

Reply by georg

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

sigasa wrote:

https://forum.modartt.com/file/5vuu6p5x

A bit of fun. I decided to have a go at creating a felt piano / celeste piano based on the U4. As I write, I'm thinking there may well be a Celeste pedal option in the U4 but am not sure. I shall look later. Anyway, I lowered the three hammer hardness sliders to 0 and adjusted the hammer noise volume and damper pedal noise volume and chose medium hall reverb.

Maybe this thread may stimulate others to attempt the same???

Thoughts?

Warmest regards,

Chris

There is a review of the U4 by Simeon, where he shows the celeste pedal, sounds very nice :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Ng7QBLVxE&t=723s

Reply by dklein

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Thanks, georg -

That's a super how-to and demonstration video, showing 29 minutes of U4 modifications.  I like the U4 Midnight EMU 1, which sounds kind of Nils Frahm and Una Corda-like.

- David

Reply by Fleer

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

dklein wrote:

Thanks, georg -

That's a super how-to and demonstration video, showing 29 minutes of U4 modifications.  I like the U4 Midnight EMU 1, which sounds kind of Nils Frahm and Una Corda-like.

Yeah, Simeon’s vids and tuts are amazing. He’s a really helpful guy.

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Reply by sigasa

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Thank you guys. I've recently discovered Simeon but have not watched many of his videos. Thank you for the link.

Warmest regards,

Chris

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Superb!

I do prefer using Pianoteq for unique treated piano sounds, rather than the existing software felt pianos.

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Reply by Filip

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

sigasa wrote:

https://forum.modartt.com/file/5vuu6p5x

A bit of fun. I decided to have a go at creating a felt piano / celeste piano based on the U4. As I write, I'm thinking there may well be a Celeste pedal option in the U4 but am not sure. I shall look later. Anyway, I lowered the three hammer hardness sliders to 0 and adjusted the hammer noise volume and damper pedal noise volume and chose medium hall reverb.

Maybe this thread may stimulate others to attempt the same???

Thoughts?

Warmest regards,

Chris

Hi, can you post an audio file of something you play?
I tried various samples of felt pianos in Pianoteq and I tried my best to configure felt pianos as well and finally I didn't like single one of them

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

FYI, the third pedal from the left in the U4 upright is a Celeste pedal, that is, a piece of felt comes in between the hammers and the strings. There's no particular preset to build, just press down the pedal.

The Steingraeber is also equipped with a Celeste pedal (very rare on grand pianos).

For the other pianos which are not equipped with a Celeste pedal, you can assign it to any pedal: right click on the pedal you want to be assigned and select Celeste Pedal in the menu.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Filip wrote:
sigasa wrote:

https://forum.modartt.com/file/5vuu6p5x

A bit of fun. I decided to have a go at creating a felt piano / celeste piano based on the U4. As I write, I'm thinking there may well be a Celeste pedal option in the U4 but am not sure. I shall look later. Anyway, I lowered the three hammer hardness sliders to 0 and adjusted the hammer noise volume and damper pedal noise volume and chose medium hall reverb.

Maybe this thread may stimulate others to attempt the same???

Thoughts?

Warmest regards,

Chris

Hi, can you post an audio file of something you play?
I tried various samples of felt pianos in Pianoteq and I tried my best to configure felt pianos as well and finally I didn't like single one of them

Hi Filip,

I will post one soon,

Warmest regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (06-11-2020 22:04)

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

FYI, the third pedal from the left in the U4 upright is a Celeste pedal, that is, a piece of felt comes in between the hammers and the strings. There's no particular preset to build, just press down the pedal.

The Steingraeber is also equipped with a Celeste pedal (very rare on grand pianos).

For the other pianos which are not equipped with a Celeste pedal, you can assign it to any pedal: right click on the pedal you want to be assigned and select Celeste Pedal in the menu.

Hi Philippe,

Thank you for the post. I hope I didn't cause confusion. I didn't realise at first that there was a Celeste pedal on the U4, but after starting this thread, I checked out the U4 and realised it does. However, I didn't find the effect of the Celeste sufficient alone to create a sound similar to the felt pianos I've heard and actually preferred to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise, damper pedal noise etc..

Warmest regards,

Chris

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

sigasa wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

FYI, the third pedal from the left in the U4 upright is a Celeste pedal, that is, a piece of felt comes in between the hammers and the strings. There's no particular preset to build, just press down the pedal.

The Steingraeber is also equipped with a Celeste pedal (very rare on grand pianos).

For the other pianos which are not equipped with a Celeste pedal, you can assign it to any pedal: right click on the pedal you want to be assigned and select Celeste Pedal in the menu.

Hi Philippe,

Thank you for the post. I hope I didn't cause confusion. I didn't realise at first that there was a Celeste pedal on the U4, but after starting this thread, I checked out the U4 and realised it does. However, I didn't find the effect of the Celeste sufficient alone to create a sound similar to the felt pianos I've heard and actually preferred to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise, damper pedal noise etc..

Warmest regards,

Chris

No problem Chris! Another thing that can work pretty well is using the EQ3 effect, raising simultaneously the low freqs (cutoff frequency 200Hz) and the high freqs (cutoff frequency 4000Hz).

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

sigasa wrote:
Filip wrote:
sigasa wrote:

https://forum.modartt.com/file/5vuu6p5x

A bit of fun. I decided to have a go at creating a felt piano / celeste piano based on the U4. As I write, I'm thinking there may well be a Celeste pedal option in the U4 but am not sure. I shall look later. Anyway, I lowered the three hammer hardness sliders to 0 and adjusted the hammer noise volume and damper pedal noise volume and chose medium hall reverb.

Maybe this thread may stimulate others to attempt the same???

Thoughts?

Warmest regards,

Chris

Hi, can you post an audio file of something you play?
I tried various samples of felt pianos in Pianoteq and I tried my best to configure felt pianos as well and finally I didn't like single one of them

Hi Filip,

I will post one soon,

Warmest regards,

Chris

as requested Filip https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=4049

warmest regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (08-11-2020 20:17)

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
sigasa wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

FYI, the third pedal from the left in the U4 upright is a Celeste pedal, that is, a piece of felt comes in between the hammers and the strings. There's no particular preset to build, just press down the pedal.

The Steingraeber is also equipped with a Celeste pedal (very rare on grand pianos).

For the other pianos which are not equipped with a Celeste pedal, you can assign it to any pedal: right click on the pedal you want to be assigned and select Celeste Pedal in the menu.

Hi Philippe,

Thank you for the post. I hope I didn't cause confusion. I didn't realise at first that there was a Celeste pedal on the U4, but after starting this thread, I checked out the U4 and realised it does. However, I didn't find the effect of the Celeste sufficient alone to create a sound similar to the felt pianos I've heard and actually preferred to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise, damper pedal noise etc..

Warmest regards,

Chris

No problem Chris! Another thing that can work pretty well is using the EQ3 effect, raising simultaneously the low freqs (cutoff frequency 200Hz) and the high freqs (cutoff frequency 4000Hz).

thank you Philippe,

warmest regards,

Chris

Reply by Filip

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

sigasa wrote:
sigasa wrote:
Filip wrote:

Hi, can you post an audio file of something you play?
I tried various samples of felt pianos in Pianoteq and I tried my best to configure felt pianos as well and finally I didn't like single one of them

Hi Filip,

I will post one soon,

Warmest regards,

Chris

as requested Filip https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=4049

warmest regards,

Chris

It's actually quite nice for Pianoteq preset.
Thank you.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Nice work Chris! Appreciate seeing this come to life.

Some people have said on the forum in the past that they like the 'particle engine' in a particular felt piano product and I'd love to encourage people to try running two echos in FX together, along with a little mallet bounce. I've coupled that with a the celeste pedal in the past and it's to me really expressive and does very similar things, as well as being much more unique.

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Reply by Emjay

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

FYI, the third pedal from the left in the U4 upright is a Celeste pedal, that is, a piece of felt comes in between the hammers and the strings. There's no particular preset to build, just press down the pedal.

The Steingraeber is also equipped with a Celeste pedal (very rare on grand pianos).

For the other pianos which are not equipped with a Celeste pedal, you can assign it to any pedal: right click on the pedal you want to be assigned and select Celeste Pedal in the menu.

I've just upgraded from Stage to Standard 7, and chose the U4 Upright specifically to attempt to recreate a felt piano effect. As suggested, I used the 'celeste' pedal (with the trackpad, not a physical pedal as I only have a single pedal on my Kawai ES110). It sounded promising, but when I played back the recording, the celeste pedal effect was completely missing. The same thing happened when I tried to record the una corda pedal with the Steinway B. I'm really disappointed - what am I doing wrong?

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Emjay wrote:

when I played back the recording, the celeste pedal effect was completely missing. The same thing happened when I tried to record the una corda pedal with the Steinway B. I'm really disappointed - what am I doing wrong?

Interesting Emjay.

Maybe someone knows what way to fix it - just seems the trackpad is not registering in the recording process.

Otherwise, can definitely confirm pedals do record and playback correctly to the MIDI recorded in Pianoteq _if performed/input via dpiano pedals._ (just tested the U4 in case to be sure it's not a new bug).

Recording MIDI works as expected and it played back correctly (pedals animate too) and also exported correctly to audio.


Not sure of a solution at present but definitely but it does seem like the trackpad isn't getting fed into the recording stream.. not sure how to fix it (anyone encounter this before?).

Pointing that out because, for another example we can all try, if we press record, and only use the mouse for clicking piano keys and pedals, they don't record/playback pedals either.. (likely the same for trackpad in your case I am presuming). I never needed to use mouse recorded input, so never saw it as a problem in my use cases.

Anyone have a work-around for this kind of thing?

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Reply by scherbakov.al

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Qexl wrote:

Not sure of a solution at present but definitely but it does seem like the trackpad isn't getting fed into the recording stream.. not sure how to fix it (anyone encounter this before?).

Pointing that out because, for another example we can all try, if we press record, and only use the mouse for clicking piano keys and pedals, they don't record/playback pedals either..

I also confirm that the pedals are not recorded if they were pressed with the mouse in the interface. And they are recorded if you use a physical controller. It is possible that the action with the pedal interface does not create a midi event and it is not saved to the midi file.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

I saved MIDI recorded with mouse and imported that into a DAW. It contained a limited number of automation controls..

Velocity
Modulation
Pitch Bend
After Touch

Then recorded MIDI normally, using dpiano and physical pedals and saved then imported that MIDI again into a DAW. It listed a full contingent of automation controls:

Velocity
Modulation
Pitch Bend
After Touch
MIDI CC 0|64
MIDI CC 0|67
MIDI CC 0|66


Cheers, thank you @scherbakov.al ! - I had never thought this as problematic before, but Emjay's example shows it could certainly be useful to route that input into MIDI.. still haven't figured a way to do it with anything in the MIDI pane.

@Julien is likely to see this - thanks Emjay. Otherwise, if you're in a hurry, contact support maybe too - can't hurt if you need a quicker fix.


If I had an urgent project which I'd like to get done today (it's maybe obvious but some might not think of it, so decided to include the below)..

I'd set the only physical pedal Emjay has to the cleste.. play/record the part, then load the MIDI into a DAW (or record in DAW), and later draw in any sustain pedal there (or I suppose, play using sustain and draw in celeste pedaling if that was easier).

Not the fix Emjay or anyone might want long term - but so far that's the thing I'd try if needing a performance wrapped up today.

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Reply by Emjay

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Qexl wrote:

I saved MIDI recorded with mouse and imported that into a DAW. It contained a limited number of automation controls..

Velocity
Modulation
Pitch Bend
After Touch

Then recorded MIDI normally, using dpiano and physical pedals and saved then imported that MIDI again into a DAW. It listed a full contingent of automation controls:

Velocity
Modulation
Pitch Bend
After Touch
MIDI CC 0|64
MIDI CC 0|67
MIDI CC 0|66


Cheers, thank you @scherbakov.al ! - I had never thought this as problematic before, but Emjay's example shows it could certainly be useful to route that input into MIDI.. still haven't figured a way to do it with anything in the MIDI pane.

@Julien is likely to see this - thanks Emjay. Otherwise, if you're in a hurry, contact support maybe too - can't hurt if you need a quicker fix.


If I had an urgent project which I'd like to get done today (it's maybe obvious but some might not think of it, so decided to include the below)..

I'd set the only physical pedal Emjay has to the cleste.. play/record the part, then load the MIDI into a DAW (or record in DAW), and later draw in any sustain pedal there (or I suppose, play using sustain and draw in celeste pedaling if that was easier).

Not the fix Emjay or anyone might want long term - but so far that's the thing I'd try if needing a performance wrapped up today.


I’ve learned that my Kawai ES110 is very limited as a MIDI controller, and my expertise is very limited when it comes to DAWs (I don’t have one). So in the light of much helpful advice from Support, and because I didn’t want to sacrifice my sustain pedal, I decided to go the simplest route. I found a local piano store with a Kawai F350 3-pedal kit in stock, bought one yesterday and installed it this morning. To my delight, Pianoteq’s pop-up ‘learn’ panel worked straight off and I was able to assign a physical pedal as the Celeste pedal. Now the recorded and ‘live’ versions of a piece sound identical.

More tweaking to be done before I have my ideal ‘felt piano’ - but what a lot of fun.

Thank you SO much for your advice on this Forum. Pianoteq is just amazing - and so is the support!

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Joerg Sunderkoetter from Pianoo online magazine has recently written a review https://www.pianoo.de/test/modartt-pian...-software/ where he published a demo using morphing, starting with an "Upright Felt-Piano": https://soundcloud.com/user-412788536/m...g-funktion

Very nice demo I find, we put it also on our morphing demo page, it is called dicembre 2020:
https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq#pane_morphing
fxp file is available to the right of the demo.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by Chopin87

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Subtle and atmospheric, what a lovely demo. I like it very much.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Reply by Qexl

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

Agree, excellent to hear this example. Good also to see the article.

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Reply by Fleer

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

It's a fine review indeed. And thank you for the link, Mr Guillaume.

Edith: I didn't know about these fxp files outside of the FXP Corner. Maybe add them there as well? Lots of fxp goodies to be found on that separate page for Morphing and Layers.

Last edited by Fleer (09-12-2020 18:03)
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Reply by dklein

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Re: Attempt at creating a felt piano

That's a really sweet transition - I like it!  The piece moves slowly, with pauses that add to the stepping through from one instrument to another, like portals.  Nice the way that it starts soft and broad, then focuses on a player-like acoustic, and then morphs away to something quite different.

- David