Topic: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I'm new here, but I'm wondering: what do you all use and enjoy for controllers for Pianoteq?

I currently use an ancient Kurzweil Midiboard. I'm not really looking to get rid of it (it is still one of the best controllers in terms of dealing with all things MIDI, not least because it offers polyphonic aftertouch. I also have a Roland A-800 Pro to help with Hammond B3 stuff and a Roli Seaboard for MPE), but I would like a contoller with an action a bit more like an acoustic piano. Sounds are totally optional (I'd actually prefer no sounds if the trade-off is for better action).

Please feel free to comment with"slightly off" suggestions as well. I appreciate any response.

Thanks in advance!

outland

Last edited by outland@runbox.com (13-08-2020 05:09)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I use a Roland FP-10, which is a basic digital piano has decent keyboard action for price.  One potential drawback, supports only a single sustain pedal that strangely is neither simple on/off or fully continuous, sends full on/ half on/ full off midi signals (though here are ways to route sustain pedal with full half-pedaling midi values into VST bypassing the piano itself).

Other units with good key action for less than $1k:

Roland FP-30, simple digital piano, same action as FP-10
Kawai ES110, simple digital piano
Korg D1  -- stage piano, no speakers, same key action as much more expensive korgs

M-Audio Hammer 88 -- midi controller only
Studiologic SL88 Studio -- controller only
Studiologic SL88 Grand -- controller only
Roland A-88 mk2 -- controller only, same key action as FP-30 and FP-10

Last edited by hesitz (13-08-2020 21:54)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

hesitz wrote:

I use a Roland FP-10, which is a basic digital piano has decent keyboard action for price.  One potential drawback, supports only a single sustain pedal that strangely is neither simple on/off or fully continuous, sends full on/ half on/ full off midi signals (though here are ways to route sustain pedal with full half-pedaling midi values into VST bypassing the piano itself).

Other units with good key action for less than $1k:

Roland FP-30, simple digital piano, same action as FP-10
Kawai ES110, simple digital piano
Korg D1  -- stage piano, no speakers, same key action as much more expensive korgs

M-Audio Hammer 88 -- midi controller only
Studiologic SL88 Studio -- controller only
Studiologic SL88 Grand -- controller only
Roland A-88 mk2 -- controller only, same key action as FP-30 and FP-10

And the new Roland RD-88.

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Thanks, Hesitz, Fleer.

I've heard good things about the Studio Logic Grand and M-Audio Hammer. I've kind of looked at the Studio Logic, but haven't looked at the M-Audio yet at all. I'm really at the beginning of this part of the search. Getting Pianoteq 6 was kind of a linchpin; I became very aware of how much control I was missing with the Midiboard (though it definitely is going to hang here around at least while longer, if not forever. It is just too capable midi-wise to sell, though it is conceivable that at some point I'll convert over to MPE entirely).

Thanks for the suggestions. I"ll start going over these in depth. Can you guys compare the action of any of these units to an acoustic grand piano (i.e.,lighter, stiffer, slower to rebound, etc.)?

Thanks again! I appreciate the response.

outland


Fleer wrote:
hesitz wrote:

I use a Roland FP-10, which is a basic digital piano has decent keyboard action for price.  One potential drawback, supports only a single sustain pedal that strangely is neither simple on/off or fully continuous, sends full on/ half on/ full off midi signals (though here are ways to route sustain pedal with full half-pedaling midi values into VST bypassing the piano itself).

Other units with good key action for less than $1k:

Roland FP-30, simple digital piano, same action as FP-10
Kawai ES110, simple digital piano
Korg D1  -- stage piano, no speakers, same key action as much more expensive korgs

M-Audio Hammer 88 -- midi controller only
Studiologic SL88 Studio -- controller only
Studiologic SL88 Grand -- controller only
Roland A-88 mk2 -- controller only, same key action as FP-30 and FP-10

And the new Roland RD-88.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I would say the Roland is somewhat slower to rebound on very fast passages. Apart from that, great action.
Do also try the Kawai VPC1, maybe the best hammer controller around, yet without internal sounds.

Pianoteq Pro Studio with Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai and Organteq

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

One disadvantage to the VPC1 is it lacking any implementation of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).

If eventually you will want PIANOTEQ to make highly realistic piano recordings, that music listeners (as well as you yourself) can appreciate, that implementation becomes an absolute necessity.  That goes especially with the more wider range dynamic pieces of music.  And, that includes fast runs!

The Kawai keyboard misses the mark whenever you want to utilize all of PIANOTEQ software modeling potential including high resolution MIDI.

Although it can look like remarkably the key bed of an actual acoustic piano, a piece such as Etude Tableau Op. 39 No. 5 by composer Sergei Rachmaninoff might present indeed a challenge to it.

However it does come with an intended velocity curve standard and set to PIANOTEQ usage.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (03-02-2021 21:01)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

One disadvantage to the VPC1 is it lacking any implementation of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).

If eventually you will want PIANOTEQ to make highly realistic piano recordings, that music listeners (as well as you yourself) can appreciate, that implementation becomes an absolute necessity.

I wouldn't actively avoid keyboards with Midi 2.0.  But I would hardly consider it a "necessity".  There are thousands and thousands  (maybe millions upon millions) of amazing recordings of music out there using "regular old" midi controllers.    Literally, almost every recording out there that uses midi has used "regular old midi".

We're in Pianoteq forum here, so for example  just listen to any of the different recordings by Phil Best on youtube. Those make me think two things:  One, how much better could the sound possibly get?  And two, by far the main problem with me getting a good sound is my own playing.  Not having high-res midi, that's a long, long ways down the list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_7_v9gsvsA

FWIW, the Roland A-88mk2 is a high-res midi controller for $999.

I agree with Fleer, above, that the Roland PHA-4 Standard action (in FP-10, FP-30, A-88, RD-88) is slightly "slow".  On the other hand, it does feel more like an actual piano than some of the other keyboards (e.g., Kawai ES110) that one wouldn't describe as slow.

Although I have the FP-10 and I'm happy with it, if I had to choose over again I think I might have gotten the Korg D1 or M-Audio Hammer 88.  I haven't ever even played on them (just read plenty of user reviews).  But I like the idea of getting a keyboard that's more of a professional keyboard, not something used by "beginners at home".  I am in fact a "beginner at home", so there you have it, but it would be fun to feel a little more legit.  Kind of like the extra little feeling of oomph I get when I imagine myself at the keyboard of a Steinway (using Pianoteq Steinway D) or playing some blues on an upright (using Pianoteq U4).

People debate over and over the merits of different keyboard actions (among other things).  I think that to a large extent, like many other things, there's a lot of good stuff out there.  None of it is perfect.  And even the best stuff will not be to everyone's liking, depending on their tastes and preferences.  You tend to get used to whatever you have and play.

Last edited by hesitz (15-08-2020 17:25)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Hello hesitz,
I have a FP-10 too and I find it good for me. But I'm curious to know what velocity curve you use ?
There is no standard curve for this action "pha-4 standard" on pianoteq forum.
Thank you...

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Have to confess, hesitz, Best’s performance is at best MIDI sounding to me.  (Although I really like his playing and technique and indeed appreciate the man’s honesty.)

Agreed however, one standard MIDI rendition compared to another of the exact same MIDI standard had been entirely acceptable, as it were at some point, just as any certainly reaching relatively wide audiences in pop music today.

Personally once made aware of high resolution MIDI, I eventually became critical of the continuous usage and the obviously broad acceptance of the otherwise low standard still used by many including me.  (Now I find myself {with just my recently increased awareness} having consequently to raise my own personal standard.)  Which I deem of course necessary if I as an artist myself ever truly intend to compete with current record sales, those indeed occurring outside this forum!

You and I also agree the Roland A-88MKII is worth its price point just under one thousand dollars ($1,000.00 US) (that is) at the $999 (US) price.  Maybe it’s the best choice per this topic.  Right now none of the others I see mentioned is likely to topple it!

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (22-02-2021 15:49)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Wonder why nobody so far mentioned the Casio Privia PX-S 1000 and 3000.

I own the PX-S 1000 for a couple of month now and am very pleased with it, especially with it's action. Comes with HiRes-Midi also ...and is imho a very good fit for PTeq.

You should definitely check it (or the 3000) out ...

Music was my first love. And it will be my last. Music of the future. And music of the past (John Miles)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

+1

Pboy wrote:

Wonder why nobody so far mentioned the Casio Privia PX-S 1000 and 3000.

I own the PX-S 1000 for a couple of month now and am very pleased with it, especially with it's action. Comes with HiRes-Midi also ...and is imho a very good fit for PTeq.

You should definitely check it (or the 3000) out ...

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

One minus (sometimes seen as a minus one {-1}) of both PX-S 1000 and PX-S 3000 keyboards, is their implementing no variable note-off velocities.

Other than that, they are potentially sound choices (my pun intended).  (Smile.)  And, particularly the PX-S 1000, perhaps is the least expensive, mentioned so far.

hesitz wrote:

I wouldn't actively avoid keyboards with Midi 2.0.  But I would hardly consider it a "necessity".  There are thousands and thousands  (maybe millions upon millions) of amazing recordings of music out there using "regular old" midi controllers.    Literally, almost every recording out there that uses midi has used "regular old midi".

Seventy-eight (78) rpm records were at a time extremely popular.  And, they too were sold in vast quantities (millions plus millions).  Where I lived, if you ever wanted to really sit down and listen to any of the latest releases that hit air waves, they became an absolute necessity inside anybody’s home whether your own or a neighbor’s.

Change however is inevitable!

One, how much better could the sound possibly get?

Surely since high resolution MIDI is a remarkable improvement that seems long overdue now, over decades old standard MIDI, it can get way much better than the previous very generally accepted low standard to which many have been accustomed.

Not having high-res midi, that's a long, long ways down the list.

Apparently on your list it is.  Suffice to say, musicians who are like you and me, naturally resist change, even when in the name of highly technological advancement it’s MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88)!  (No wonder MIDI implementation charts appear either last in keyboard manuals or on an entirely separate sheet in its own booklet and PDF.)  Hardly an individual player actually wants now to relinquish his board or an effect he recently got from it, one to a lot he maybe just swore by a moment ago.  You know peers of his are going to have their say so too. 

Man, peer pressure!

People debate over and over the merits of different keyboard actions (among other things).  I think that to a large extent, like many other things, there's a lot of good stuff out there.  None of it is perfect.  And even the best stuff will not be to everyone's liking, depending on their tastes and preferences.  You tend to get used to whatever you have and play.

I feel when I move from the standard format to an high resolution I’m going from stale bread to a pizza with pineapple!

Have to watch out for sugary sweets; too much ain’t good for you.  Believe me; I know.  (Smile.)

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (27-08-2020 00:44)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Thanks for all these comments. I do appreciate all the ideas being suggested (and I'm already checking these out).

I should hasten to add that I do have Pianoteq Standard currently with four instruments: Steinway D ("ground zero" for me), Petrof, K2, and Grotian. I attempted to get the four most distinctive each in a different given direction. I do intend to get at least three more: Bluthner, Steingraeber, and Bechstein. What I love is that each one of these actually acts as a voice with a very clear predilection for stylistic definition. Originally, I'd assumed that I'd use the Steinway almost exclusively. That's not the way it's working out. It is actually my acquisition of Pianoteq that pushed me over the edge to consider a new controller. Phil Best's demos were very helpful to me in my original choices.

High resolution MIDI, to be honest, is a feature about which I'd not even considered worrying (which is a very different thing than to say that I will not be concerned about it). I had thought that most of the controllers were still a very far way from implementing it; I did know that Roland had one controller (or synthesizer?) with it. I haven't heard anything about its action yet.With Amen, perhaps, I worry that, while I am very tradition-bound, I will sooner rather than later miss the feature if I do not get a keyboard that correctly implements it. It's one of the those things in technology that I believe I may not be able to _hear_, per se, but will definitely be able to _feel_ and therefore react to in my playing.   

And to those who may have recommended my checking out keyboards that they have only read about: that's very cool. I am only in the preliminary stages of my search, so anything that sounds like it may be worthwhile, I'd appreciate info for. So, please do let me know about those keys that you've only heard good things about, but not played.

Last edited by outland@runbox.com (16-08-2020 23:08)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I'm late to the conversation but I'd recommend the Studiologic SL88GRAND as your controller.  Great keybed for $899 made by the folks who make the best keypads for all keyboards (Fatar).  I use one live and have one in my rehearsal studio.  No complaints as of yet.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

hesitz wrote:
Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

One disadvantage to the VPC1 is it lacking any implementation of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).

If eventually you will want PIANOTEQ to make highly realistic piano recordings, that music listeners (as well as you yourself) can appreciate, that implementation becomes an absolute necessity.

I wouldn't actively avoid keyboards with Midi 2.0.  But I would hardly consider it a "necessity".  There are thousands and thousands  (maybe millions upon millions) of amazing recordings of music out there using "regular old" midi controllers.    Literally, almost every recording out there that uses midi has used "regular old midi".

We're in Pianoteq forum here, so for example  just listen to any of the different recordings by Phil Best on youtube. Those make me think two things:  One, how much better could the sound possibly get?  And two, by far the main problem with me getting a good sound is my own playing.  Not having high-res midi, that's a long, long ways down the list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_7_v9gsvsA

FWIW, the Roland A-88mk2 is a high-res midi controller for $999.

I agree with Fleer, above, that the Roland PHA-4 Standard action (in FP-10, FP-30, A-88, RD-88) is slightly "slow".  On the other hand, it does feel more like an actual piano than some of the other keyboards (e.g., Kawai ES110) that one wouldn't describe as slow.

Although I have the FP-10 and I'm happy with it, if I had to choose over again I think I might have gotten the Korg D1 or M-Audio Hammer 88.  I haven't ever even played on them (just read plenty of user reviews).  But I like the idea of getting a keyboard that's more of a professional keyboard, not something used by "beginners at home".  I am in fact a "beginner at home", so there you have it, but it would be fun to feel a little more legit.  Kind of like the extra little feeling of oomph I get when I imagine myself at the keyboard of a Steinway (using Pianoteq Steinway D) or playing some blues on an upright (using Pianoteq U4).

People debate over and over the merits of different keyboard actions (among other things).  I think that to a large extent, like many other things, there's a lot of good stuff out there.  None of it is perfect.  And even the best stuff will not be to everyone's liking, depending on their tastes and preferences.  You tend to get used to whatever you have and play.

I was using FP-10 for a while but wanted to test other options. I have been testing M-Audio Hammer for some time and there is something about its action that I do not like. I tested the keyboard with the calibration weights today and the white keys need ~50g to move (probably 52 or so). The problem is that it is not graded properly (high keys need more weight than the lowest and that black keys need less than 50 g to move. I do not like Kawai action of Korg D1. I am either going to get Roland A-88 mkII (MIDI 2.0) or FP-10 again. FP-30X does not give me more than FP-10 for what I need and FP-90X costs a lot more and I get features (in addition to PHA50) I do not need. By the way, Roland FP-10 needs 63g for white keys to move.

Last edited by Michael F (30-01-2021 01:40)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Do you change every preset for maximum dynamics?

In my humble opinion high resolution velocity response is not really required. Any perceived problems relating to the current limitations are a red herring. Look elsewhere.

Already with 127 gradients you actually have considerably more refined velocity steps than the human hearing system requires or can detect (1 decibel being the absolute lowest change in volume that we can even perceive in optimal circumstances, nevermind when concentrating on music! - for most people it's more like 2.5 to 3dB)  and IMHO (the subjective part) more steps than it is feasible to believe tonal differences can be perceived within.  I really don't believe that there is a full 127 tonal changes worth in the sound of a single piano key to mortal humans.

In short from a velocity resolution perspective we clearly have more than enough already for both volume and tonal differentiation already.

The quality of the keybed on the other hand will make a substantial difference in the potential for the quality of performance.

So I would still love to have a VPC1 if I could justify it.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Midi 2.0 is much more than just hires midi. Before buying a new keyboard one should check into the new spec.

https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/deta...y-exchange

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

levinite wrote:

Midi 2.0 is much more than just hires midi. Before buying a new keyboard one should check into the new spec.

https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/deta...y-exchange

Absolutely, and it should be useful for other things. However that doesn't mean it will be useful for you as a consumer right now merely since it has been implemented by a company that has jumped on the bandwagon cynically to get extra sales out of an otherwise regular piano style keyboard.

Future generations of MPE controllers could be something else.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:

Already with 127 gradients you actually have considerably more refined velocity steps than the human hearing system requires or can detect

I'm trying to image the pianist who can strike the keys with such accurate velocity as to need increased resolution in order to play a note a little louder than 67, but not as much louder as 68...

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Coises wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Already with 127 gradients you actually have considerably more refined velocity steps than the human hearing system requires or can detect

I'm trying to image the pianist who can strike the keys with such accurate velocity as to need increased resolution in order to play a note a little louder than 67, but not as much louder as 68...

Strongly agree. I forgot to add that to my own post.
Even trying to consistently achieve that with one key is hard to imagine, let alone having that playing resolution in all your fingers as you play music.
Our human velocity control at the fingertips I suggest is way cruder than that. 127 steps gives us plenty more than we require even considering any of that resolution getting lost in velocity curves.

People could fool themselves into imagining they have greater sensitivity than they do when playing traditional sampled pianos when triggering velocity layers which could have a detectable stepping effect (especially acoustic pianos with a low number of velocity layers).
Luckily no such problem here!

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

That's one of the major strengths of Pianoteq : No layers !

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

People the topic here is: Best controller recommendations (under $1000).  Presumably, this was intended for someone to consider in usage with PIANOTEQ.  The best controller geared at a price point under $1,000.00 (US) today seems a Roland A-88MKII.  As this controller probably will transmit MIDI messages which utilize the software’s maximum benefit including both high resolution and variable note-off velocities.  None of the others so far mentioned at this thread possesses this unique capability.  Every other appears largely lacking: much less than entirely suitable if you’re really wanting now to truly enjoy all the modern benefit the software really has over current samples and do see the more resolutions (available) as a software major strength!

Gaston wrote:

That's one of the major strengths of Pianoteq : No layers !

Although, I’d resist a temptation to make broad sweeping generalizations, if I were you.  As often someone will find them simply basically untrue!

Pianoteq 7 released

It is here! Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO) introduces acoustic Morphing and Layering.

Computer technology rapidly changes with faster processors and new and improved software which can utilize processors with greater efficiency.  However, now at computers musicians have had gotten their limbo with standard MIDI fundamentally unchanged about four (4) whole decades.  I get it.  They of course do too.  Although, you still have to have some fanboys.  Many are yet extremely loyal....

While personally I’m trying in earnest to stay inside this topic, I’ve a comparison to share with you about newly introduced high resolutions specifically.

When 4K resolutions were just introduced into consumer markets, I was somewhat cynical.  Then I felt nothing will be any better than 1080i resolution.  At sequential stages of my home viewership I even felt similarly about other resolutions those of Blu-ray, DVD, VCR, Betamax, color TV and clearly solid-state B&W TV.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Our human velocity control at the fingertips I suggest is way cruder than that. 127 steps gives us plenty more than we require even considering any of that resolution getting lost in velocity curves.
People could fool themselves into imagining they have greater sensitivity than they do when playing traditional sampled pianos when triggering velocity layers which could have a detectable stepping effect (especially acoustic pianos with a low number of velocity layers).
Luckily no such problem here!

Maybe you were rationalizing?

If you’ve some supporting documents that might lend credence to your statements above (perhaps concerning either real human potential or limitation), I’d like very much to look over them.  (You may want to consider your own thread, possibly.)  As I like a debate, I’ll certainly give my own input.  And, I will add had this thread been about a probable controller priced over $1,000.00 (US), I would earlier have mentioned a Disklavier as the university —University of Minnesota— that hosts the annual piano-e-competition awards the high resolution capable instrument controller to any of its contest winners.

Now I’m just assuming many staff members as well as judges at the university have a reason to provide both a folder in high resolution MIDI XP and standard MIDI format performances from the Disklavier.  But, as you know logic sometimes fails...

So to conclude, I will like any music teacher can say to beginning pupils, use your ears!  (Smile.)  And, please listen to standard and high resolution examples at the university, no need now to go off on a tangent and totally off topic!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

People the topic here is: Best controller recommendations (under $1000).  Presumably, this was intended for someone to consider in usage with PIANOTEQ.  The best controller geared at a price point under $1,000.00 (US) today seems a Roland A-88MKII.  As this controller probably will transmit MIDI messages which utilize the software’s maximum benefit including both high resolution and variable note-off velocities.  None of the others so far mentioned at this thread possesses this unique capability.  Every other appears largely lacking: much less than entirely suitable if you’re really wanting now to truly enjoy all the modern benefit the software really has over current samples and do see the more resolutions (available) as a software major strength!

Gaston wrote:

That's one of the major strengths of Pianoteq : No layers !

Although, I’d resist a temptation to make broad sweeping generalizations, if I were you.  As often someone will find them simply basically untrue!

Pianoteq 7 released

It is here! Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO) introduces acoustic Morphing and Layering.

Computer technology rapidly changes with faster processors and new and improved software which can utilize processors with greater efficiency.  However, now at computers musicians have had gotten their limbo with standard MIDI fundamentally unchanged about four (4) whole decades.  I get it.  They of course do too.  Although, you still have to have some fanboys.  Many are yet extremely loyal....

While personally I’m trying in earnest to stay inside this topic, I’ve a comparison to share with you about newly introduced high resolutions specifically.

When 4K resolutions were just introduced into consumer markets, I was somewhat cynical.  Then I felt nothing will be any better than 1080i resolution.  At sequential stages of my home viewership I even felt similarly about other resolutions those of Blu-ray, DVD, VCR, Betamax, color TV and clearly solid-state B&W TV.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Our human velocity control at the fingertips I suggest is way cruder than that. 127 steps gives us plenty more than we require even considering any of that resolution getting lost in velocity curves.
People could fool themselves into imagining they have greater sensitivity than they do when playing traditional sampled pianos when triggering velocity layers which could have a detectable stepping effect (especially acoustic pianos with a low number of velocity layers).
Luckily no such problem here!

Maybe you were rationalizing?

If you’ve some supporting documents that might lend credence to your statements above (perhaps concerning either real human potential or limitation), I’d like very much to look over them.  (You may want to consider your own thread, possibly.)  As I like a debate, I’ll certainly give my own input.  And, I will add had this thread been about a probable controller priced over $1,000.00 (US), I would earlier have mentioned a Disklavier as the university —University of Minnesota— that hosts the annual piano-e-competition awards the high resolution capable instrument controller to any of its contest winners.

Now I’m just assuming many staff members as well as judges at the university have a reason to provide both a folder in high resolution MIDI XP and standard MIDI format performances from the Disklavier.  But, as you know logic sometimes fails...

So to conclude, I will like any music teacher can say to beginning pupils, use your ears!  (Smile.)  And, please listen to standard and high resolution examples at the university, no need now to go off on a tangent and totally off topic!

I will refer you to details regarding sound pressure levels in my post-16 for further details.
Consider 127 gradients has plenty to spare even considering lossy velocity curves given the dynamic range we normally use.
Note that most presets in Pianoteq only have say 20-40 decibel dynamic range too.

I'm guessing you're criticism of Gaston's layering comment referring to Modartt recently adding instrument layering is humour?

Gaston was of course referring to velocity layers which of course is nothing to do with the the instrument layering within Pianoteq.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:

I will refer you to details regarding sound pressure levels in my post-16 for further details.
Consider 127 gradients has plenty to spare even considering lossy velocity curves given the dynamic range we normally use.
Note that most presets in Pianoteq only have say 20-40 decibel dynamic range too.

Man, this I gotta see!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

https://media.giphy.com/media/izJTd56RgeU4U/giphy.gifhttps://media.giphy.com/media/tBvPFCFQHSpEI/giphy.gif

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

https://media.giphy.com/media/izJTd56RgeU4U/giphy.gifhttps://media.giphy.com/media/tBvPFCFQHSpEI/giphy.gif

I wouldn't even pretend to have Ross's legendary mastery of the keyboard.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Focus.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:

Gaston was of course referring to velocity layers which of course is nothing to do with the the instrument layering within Pianoteq.

Yes indeed ! Maybe  should I have specified " No velocity layers "

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Gaston wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Gaston was of course referring to velocity layers which of course is nothing to do with the the instrument layering within Pianoteq.

Yes indeed ! Maybe  should I have specified " No velocity layers "

Or if he really wants to be pedantic you could say it has no velocity layers within any single instrument.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I've asked in the SL 88 Grand thread already, but maybe this is a better place.
For portable use of Pianoteq, I have a Kawai ES 110. The weight is nice, and it feels ok - but for playing classical it's a big compromise.
I'd like to stay below 1000€, and wouldn't mind if it's not too heavy.
Would the SL88 be the big improvement?

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

MartinGr wrote:

Would the SL88 be the big improvement?

It might be an improvement, since indirectly it can come recommended by MODARTT for PIANOTEQ.  That is if it in fact uses the Fatar TP40W same as the officially promoted LACHNIT FLK Keyboard.  (You may want to check that.)  But currently, differences to my own understanding are the LACHNIT FLK uses optical sensors and high resolution MIDI.  In addition it comes with altogether a higher price tag.  One currently that is well over a thousand dollars ($1,000.00 US).

Perhaps someone else will comment on the board’s experienced playability, in a comparison to the Kawai ES 110...  (If not, a search of the Fatar TP40W or Fatar TP40 at this forum could yield some results you’re after possibly right now.)

MartinGr as you clearly can see from my previous posts (above), my ranting and raving at this thread has been about the higher resolutions.  So, a potentially bigger improvement you may want to consider (that is) a culmination of both the feel and ultimate sound you can get out of those resolutions, especially, with regards to anything classical, your own particular interest.  In my defense I’m only assuming the amount of keyboard velocity resolutions available to you or anybody else at a specific board might affect your dexterity (that is) your overall artistic feel or exertion upon the actual piano keys themselves just as similarly buffer sizes might also whenever you’re going to play a classical number or even possibly jazz.

So, since a professional you’ve your own piano acoustic you’re likely very much accustomed instead with such a keyboard: but without any arbitrary corporate imposed velocity limitation —127 MIDI velocities— so long as you’re enjoying your playing or practicing upon it.  Likewise student performers who play at Disklaviers have no such limitation er stipulation given to their performances and recordings on the instruments.  Indeed these instruments (acoustics) are used by recording engineers who want high quality produced piano recordings.  High resolution capable pianos definitely will result in just that!

Before you finally decide upon your choice of portable piano instrument I want to urge you as much as I can, if you will firstly consider also the possibilities afforded by higher resolution recordings specifically gotten from the high resolution MIDI formats.  One of such is Yamaha MIDI XP.

Folders of that and standard MIDI recordings are available as downloads immediately for anybody who’s wisely going to listen and do a comparison of these two: before a decision is made by anyone to buy any keyboard that’s likely to meet the special requirements of a professional such as yourself who’s also currently shopping.

Please, take some free examples (Yamaha MIDI XP and standard MIDI) recorded from students’ performances before you buy: but bring your point of view as a professional player about the files, the MIDI.  (Files which load into PIANOTEQ.)

You get free examples available from e-Piano Junior Competition 2021, if you’re willing to partake in any experiment and maybe just help to arrive at a possible resolution amongst fellow forum members who can often dispute the facts.  (Laugh.)

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (31-01-2021 05:30)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I won't dispute facts.  1023>127.

Just like 176.4 kHz > 44.1 kHz.

The question is not whether or not "more is more", but when "more" actually improves the experience.  Many will swear that they can hear (or somehow otherly sense) the difference between 88.2 kHz and 176.4 kHz renderings on PianoTeq.  I believe that is rather unlikely, as our ears just don't have nerve-sensors for frequencies much above 20 kHz (and by this time, my threshold is considerably lower)  As such, I think sampling much above 40 kHz just is not likely detectable.  I know that artists claim they can tell the difference, and if they have the cash, I say go for it.  But even great artists can be placeboed. 

A double-blind listening test seems to be in order.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

klaberte wrote:

A double-blind listening test seems to be in order.

Specifically, people as consumers and forum members seem to have turned a blind eye already to the fact that expert piano technicians at Yamaha made Yamaha’s MIDI XP out of a necessity.  Unlike some forum members a technician sees Yamaha MIDI XP as vital to Disklavier Pro pianos.  Additionally, the format is indeed considered a vital part throughout the annual successful operation of the piano competition that Yamaha partners with the university.  Truly staff there must have a reason, if it is to both accept from contestants and provide recordings of the contest entries in that specific format in addition to it making standard MIDI also available to general public consumption.  Yamaha MIDI XP is a requirement no doubt needed per each entry into the international contest.  The staff is answerable to contest judges at the university, if it only has somehow made a mistake according to many forum members here.

Furthermore, developers of PIANOTEQ itself have their reasons high resolution formats are integral to the software.  Such is far from anything just imaginary or the imaginings of me as or on the part of a forum member one end user!

I’ve long concluded piano players at the forum want to come across playful in their posts, and, not just music recitals online.  (Smile.)

It seems, a Dr. John Q. Walker was more than merely instrumental (pun intended) in his insisting the contest commit to high resolution MIDI.  He’s given a TED Talk also:

Have included a link and an excerpt from the transcript, https://www.ted.com/talks/john_q_walker...transcript:

Ninety-nine percent of us have the dream of listeners. Not being the musicians -- the listeners, right? And we crave one thing, even though we kind of don't know it all the time. We crave to be in the room with the musician the day it was recorded, the day it was played. And we go to live concerts, and we get that as much as we can. But then we listen to the other 99 percent of our stuff recorded. And it turns out the further back you go in history, the little rougher it sounds. And so we said, there's a solution to this. Let's separate the performance, as a thing, out from the recording, which was how it was made. You know, the thing with microphones in the room and all that day. But the performance itself was how the musicians worked their fingers, and what instruments they were using. And it's the data hidden inside the recording. In order to do this, it's a lot of hardware and software that runs in a very high resolution. And Yamaha makes an incredible thing called the Disklavier Pro that looks like a nice grand piano there. And you probably didn't realize it's going to do all these things -- but full of solenoids, and fiber optics, and computers and all this kind of stuff. The highest resolution out of Japan. And this just didn't work until we could cross this line that says high-definition. And we were able to cross this line, called the uncanny valley, in terms of -- artificial intelligence terms. We have a process where we, you know, kind of put it into the computer and digitize it, and then a whole lot of analysis. And we look at every single note, and all the attributes of those notes: how hard they were struck, and how they were held down, and how you move the fingers. So we had to develop a whole new science of how you move your fingers. And, you know, it's a thing your piano teacher teaches you, but we never had a science behind these kinds of things.

I'm going to start with Glenn Gould. He died 25 years ago this year, and was born 75 years ago this year. Was a beloved pianist, maybe the great cult pianist of the twentieth century. He just got tired of being in front of an audience, and felt like -- a performing monkey was, in fact, his term. So he stepped back, and did nothing but the crafting of his work. And Gould's specialty was playing Bach. His maybe most famous recording was something called "The Goldberg Variations." Bach only wrote themes and variations one time. He wrote some early pieces, but late in his life, in his mature period, he said, "Here's a theme -- 30 variations." In fact, the theme isn't even the melody, it's the bass line. And Gould recorded it in two major recordings that you may know about, one in mono, and one in stereo. And the one in mono, by the way, he used the pedal, and as he got older, he said, "No, no, wait a minute. I'm going to get very scientific about this, and not use the pedal." What I'd like you to hear live is the 1955 version, and we'll play the first couple pieces of it. Glenn Gould, 1955. (Music) How about that? (Applause)

So let me tell you a little bit how this was done. First of all, let me get you to the end step. This is -- we have a fairly complex process that, you know, software and musicians and so on, but when we're all done, we know that the ear is the final arbiter. We can play the original in one ear, and a new recording in the other. So I'm going to do this for you right now, what you just heard. And in the right speaker is going to be the original recording, and the left speaker is going to be the new recording, actually of an instrument just like that one, and I'm going to play them together at the same time. (Music) That's the original. [Unclear] That's the two together. (Music)

Before "Jurassic Park," there was no science for how skin hung off of muscle, right? So, in the video world, we've been able to invent, in our lifetimes, natural behavior. And this is kind of another example of putting a science behind natural behavior. And then you heard the original. Ultimately, I started with the experience. And the experience is: I want to be in the room and hear the musicians. Lots of you can afford to buy one of these. But, if not, there is now high-definition surround sound. And I got to tell you, if you haven't heard high-definition surround, go down to your audio dealer, your audiophile dealer. It's so involving compared to regular stereo. But if you don't have that, maybe you can listen on your headphones. And so on the same disk we have five recordings -- Sony has five recordings. And you could listen in headphones with this thing called binaural recording. And it's a dummy head that sits in front of the instrument, and it's got microphones where the ears are. And when you put on headphones, and you listen to this, you're inside of Glenn Gould's body. And it is a chuckle until, you know, the musicians, who are musicians who play the piano, listen to this, say, "I can't believe it! It's just what it's like to play the piano." Except now you're inside Glenn Gould's body playing the piano, and it feels like your fingers are making the decisions and moving through the whole process. It's a game changer.

Here's now something we know in spectacular quality. The whole process is very sensitive to temperature and humidity. What you heard today was not perfect. It's an amalgam of wood, and cast iron, and felt, and steel strings, and all these, and they're all amazingly sensitive to temperature and humidity. So when you go into the recording session, you get to stop after every piece and rebuild the piano if you need to. There's the whole action there, sitting, kind of, on the side, and the dummy head and our recording engineers standing around while we rebuild the piano. Without putting dates next to these things, step-by-step music will be turned into data, like every field that's occurred in the past 35 or 40 years. Audio has come very late to this game -- I'm not talking about digitizing, and bits, and re-mastering. I'm talking about turn it into the data that it was made from, which is how it was performed. And audio came very late because our ears are so hard to fool -- they're high-resolution, and they're wired straight to our emotions, and you can't trick them very easily. Your eyes are pretty happy with some color and movement, you know.

All right, there's this episode of "Star Trek." (Laughter) I get it -- it was all just laid in for me yesterday there. The episode of "Star Trek" for me was James Daly played Methuselah -- remember this one? And at some point he's dancing with his -- and I won't ruin the episode for you, from 1967. Right, do you know where I'm going? And Nimoy, I'm sorry, Spock sits down at the piano, and he starts playing this Brahms waltz, and they all dance to it. And then Spock turns round, he goes, "James, I know all of the Brahms waltzes, and I don't believe this is one of them in the category." That's where I'm at. I want to hear the waltzes Brahms didn't write. I want to hear the pieces that Horowitz didn't play. But I believe we're on a path now, when we get to data, that we can distill styles, and templates, and formulas, and all these kinds of things, again, that you've seen happen in the computer graphics world. It's now coming in this world. The transition will be this one. It says right now, we think music is notes and how they're played. And I believe this is coming. Because what you've just heard was a computer playing data -- no Glenn Gould in the room. But yet, it was human. And I believe you'll get to the next step, the real dream of listeners. Every time you listen to a recording today, every time you take out your iPod and whatever, every time you listen to it, it's the same thing -- it's frozen. Wouldn't it be cool if every time you listened, it could be different? This morning, you're sadder, you want to hear your song, the same song, played sadder than you did yesterday. You want to hear it played by different musicians. You want to hear it in different rooms and whatever.

We've seen all these "Star Treks," and they're all holodeck episodes as well. Every time I listen to that, I get goose bumps. It's so amazing, it's so exciting. Every time I listen to that recording it's like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm in the same room. I can't believe this is happening." It's a way better experience than whatever you're used to listening to, in whatever form. And lastly, I will wrap up with one minute of Art Tatum. So I've really overshot my budget here. We made a new recording of him playing in the Shrine Auditorium in September. It was a concert he recorded in the Shrine Auditorium in 1949. And I've got to tell you, we have this lab where we build and measure everything, back in Raleigh, North Carolina, and we flew out to Los Angeles. And as the president of the company, I didn't feel real comfortable about where we were. That's a real uncomfortable feeling, when all the equipment's come out and a whole Sony team, and people are going to be sitting there in the audience. And we put the piano on the sweet spot of the stage in the Shrine, which has not changed since 1949, still seats 6,000 people. And on the sweet spot on the stage, Tatum starts playing ... and every note, every beat, every slur, every accent, every pedal was perfect, because he played it for that room on that day. And we captured all that data all over again. And I want you to hear that right now. And fortunately, it's right in here. This is an encore he used to do. It's one minute long. It's an Irish jig, and I want you to hear his humor. (Music) (Applause) And that's just what the live audience did. (Applause) So thank you very much, Michael, thank you for the opportunity.

My best controller recommendation includes high resolution MIDI and variable note-off capability along with supporting evidence from a PhD, no B.S.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (01-02-2021 22:35)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:
Gaston wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Gaston was of course referring to velocity layers which of course is nothing to do with the the instrument layering within Pianoteq.

Yes indeed ! Maybe  should I have specified " No velocity layers "

Or if he really wants to be pedantic you could say it has no velocity layers within any single instrument.

He is right here, with you in the forum.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Outside of marketing advantages (as per your example IMHO) high resolution MIDI is going to be nice to have well after all the other mechanical (read much more expensive) priorities are handled as well as possible I suggest.
The design of the key mechanisms is far more important. Nice to have both of course..

High resolution MIDI will likely eventually be the norm, even in say £20 throwaway junk keyboards with nasty micro keys or chiclet keys.

A high resolution MIDI control chipset could just replace the current standard in mass production. I guess contract priorities and existing stocks will determine when or if HD MIDI takes over.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if high quality keyboards with the premium quality actions made today that lack HD MIDI will still hold decent used value in a decade, if well preserved.
That a mint VPC1 say will still command a reasonable figure when entry level digital pianos might all feature the technically more advanced MIDI standard.
We are talking here about something that blind testing is going to prove hard to distinguish for both player and listener, not the advent of high definition TV here!
It will be nice to see all new keyboards have it as a matter of course, but it's right down the list after all the mechanical conditions are met in a high end design I suggest.
For any truly new designs it probably should be defacto for reasons discussed. It's not going to be a true deciding factor in quality of performance.
That said if a musician believes it to be better will they find themselves playing better?

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:

That said if a musician believes it to be better will they find themselves playing better?

I may find myself playing a lot more realistically and thusly better with it than without!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

That said if a musician believes it to be better will they find themselves playing better?

I may find myself playing a lot more realistically and thusly better with it than without!

Exactly. Lucky rabbit's foot, high resolution MIDI or whatever, if it works it works!

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

https://media.giphy.com/media/PSW8W8M1VuGZi/giphy.gif

And, here I thought I was making a point...

Key Fumbler wrote:

Exactly. Lucky rabbit's foot, high resolution MIDI or whatever, if it works it works!

https://media.giphy.com/media/SWuSJPnb6UGrK9SKP4/giphy.gif

(Perhaps moderators will disapprove of my descriptive usage of the situational humor {above} at this thread?)

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

klaberte wrote:

I won't dispute facts.  1023>127.

Just like 176.4 kHz > 44.1 kHz.

The question is not whether or not "more is more", but when "more" actually improves the experience.  Many will swear that they can hear (or somehow otherly sense) the difference between 88.2 kHz and 176.4 kHz renderings on PianoTeq.  I believe that is rather unlikely, as our ears just don't have nerve-sensors for frequencies much above 20 kHz (and by this time, my threshold is considerably lower)  As such, I think sampling much above 40 kHz just is not likely detectable.  I know that artists claim they can tell the difference, and if they have the cash, I say go for it.  But even great artists can be placeboed. 

A double-blind listening test seems to be in order.

OK, let's try.

To perform the ABX test,
1. Download and install foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org/download)
2. Download and install the ABX plugin (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx). Directions and details can be found on that page.
3. Download two audio files and run the ABX test on them, then post your results here. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/110V7Iz...sp=sharing)

The two files are of the same performance of "Johann Sebastian Bach-Prelude and Fugue in D Major, Book II".  The XP MIDI file and the SMF (standard) MIDI file come from the 2018 e-Piano Junior Competition, performed by Feng Bian (https://piano-e-competition.com/midi_2018.asp).  Audio files were created using the standard preset of "Steinway D Classical" of Pianoteq STAGE v6.7.3, using the "Export to Audio File" feature. (I am assuming my version of PianoTeq can properly render the high definition MIDI files.  I am trying to confirm, but welcome anyone informing me differently.)

Please let me know if you have any questions, difficulties, or requests for other performances or PianoTeq settings.

***I believe that my distribution of these audio files is fair-use, only for educational purposes.  If requested, I will immediately remove the audio files.

Last edited by klaberte (01-02-2021 19:31)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Something is missing, afraid to commit?

I’ve already drawn my conclusion!

Although, thank you for links...

My interest still is whether or not there is a better controller, one that comes better recommended at an agreed upon price.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

One disadvantage to the VPC1 is it lacking any implementation of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).

If eventually you will want PIANOTEQ to make highly realistic piano recordings, that music listeners (as well as you yourself) can appreciate, that implementation becomes an absolute necessity.  That goes especially with the more wider range dynamic pieces of music.  And, that includes fast runs!

The Kawai keyboard misses the mark whenever you want to utilize all of PIANOTEQ software modeling potential including high resolution MIDI.

In case you have forgotten your earlier claims.  Surely you must be able to hear the difference.

We will wait....

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Thanks a lot for the samples. Yes, I hear subtle differences...
but still, I'm sure that Midi resolution would affect my playing much less that the difference between two keyboards. After some adjustments, I'm perfectly happy when I play Pianoteq with headphones through the 12 year old old silent system on my Bechstein Concert 8 Upright (from Genio).
When I play the ES 110, it always feels and sounds a bit boring to me, although the midi controller might be even more accurate... So my main interest is still a keyboard I can carry, which feels really good. I'll buy the SL88 Grand tomorrow evening to try it.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

MartinGr wrote:

Thanks a lot for the samples. Yes, I hear subtle differences...
but still, I'm sure that Midi resolution would affect my playing much less that the difference between two keyboards. After some adjustments, I'm perfectly happy when I play Pianoteq with headphones through the 12 year old old silent system on my Bechstein Concert 8 Upright (from Genio).
When I play the ES 110, it always feels and sounds a bit boring to me, although the midi controller might be even more accurate... So my main interest is still a keyboard I can carry, which feels really good. I'll buy the SL88 Grand tomorrow evening to try it.

I'm glad you liked them.

For those that are not familiar, an ABX tests whether a subject can hear a difference between two different audio clips, A and B.  If you can, then when one of the two (chosen randomly) is played, you should be able to consistently identify the random clip as either A or B.

Of course, even if you are simply guessing (i.e. you cannot hear any difference), you still have a 50% of guessing correctly.  That is why an ABX test makes you repeat the task multiple times, making it increasingly unlikely that you will guess correctly multiple times.  Using the method I outlined above, the software will report how well you did in identifying A and B.  It also provides a hash, to prevent people from cheating!  :-)

By default, the listener is assumed not to be able to hear a difference until they provide evidence that they "passed the ABX test".

If you "fail the ABX test", know that you are in very good company.  Most people, myself included, are humbled by the process.

Good luck with the SL 88 Grand.  Please share your experiences here.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

klaberte wrote:

In case you have forgotten your earlier claims.  Surely you must be able to hear the difference.

We will wait....

Sure, I see a difference too!  Only, if you or anybody else is really offering a new Kawai VPC1 under a thousand ($1,000.00 US), I’ll consider that gladly at this thread.

For now, I’m sticking with my Roland A-88MKII suggestion.  That’s at least within somebody’s budget!

People do say, good things come to those who wait...

Still something is missing.  Care maybe you yourself to share?

(My edit included the added phrase, ‘at least.’)

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (02-02-2021 21:36)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

For those that want to try with files that are easier to identify, try these audio files:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ddMnne...sp=sharing

Here is my evidence that I can hear a difference between the these two files:

===========
foo_abx 2.0.6d report
foobar2000 v1.5.1
2021-02-02 14:44:54

File A: BianF01XP30.wav
SHA1: 0928e0c54456feba3d32d49b6dbe3eb84f5c6a84
File B: BianF01XP30_LPF1k.wav
SHA1: 3677c7b1530a2ebe6c8ea0bc1e1e2f944a021563

Output:
DS : Primary Sound Driver
Crossfading: NO

14:44:54 : Test started.
14:45:50 : 01/01
14:46:01 : 02/02
14:46:23 : 03/03
14:46:44 : 04/04
14:47:04 : 05/05
14:47:24 : 06/06
14:47:39 : 07/07
14:47:49 : 08/08
14:48:05 : 09/09
14:48:18 : 10/10
14:48:18 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10
p-value: 0.001 (0.1%)

-- signature --
a3791f731a1bbb2564e3366c2c0245819e121423

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

For a reliable ABX test to be carried out the following conditions would need to be met:

1) Exactly the same keyboard in both HD MIDI and standard MIDI modes.

2) Independently verified checks to prove the velocity curve (singular) was exactly the same for both modes and that there wasn't a hidden real velocity curve which made the HD MIDI play a little hot in the lower treble say for apparent air and brilliance in the sound, or a little spicy in the bass, or play slightly louder across the keyboard.

3) Independently verified checks to prove both modes used the same physically modelled piano engine in the same mode, or triggered the same sample set, albeit potentially with more sample layers for the HD MIDI version.
Even this latter condition could cast doubt on the validity of the test though, so the former physical model suggestion would be less open to cheating if properly independently verified.

Get Volkswagen as the independent dependable honest adjudicator!

Last edited by Key Fumbler (04-02-2021 12:20)

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Key Fumbler wrote:

For a reliable ABX test to be carried out the following conditions would need to be met:

1) Exactly the same keyboard in both HD MIDI and standard MIDI modes.

2) Independently verified checks to prove the velocity curve (singular) was exactly the same for both modes and that there wasn't a hidden real velocity curve which made the HD MIDI play a little hot in the lower treble say for apparent air and brilliance in the sound, or a little spicy in the bass, or play slightly louder across the keyboard.

3) Independently verified checks to prove both modes used the same physically modelled piano engine in the same mode, or triggered the same sample set, albeit potentially with more sample layers for the HD MIDI version.
Even this latter condition could cast doubt on the validity of the test though, so the former physical model suggestion would be less open to cheating if properly independently verified.

Get Volkswagen as the independent dependable honest adjudicator!

All good points.  I believe all were met for the two files I posted.

However, if you wish to create your own two audio files for ABX, here are the steps I took (which you can duplicate):

a. Grab the standard and XP midi files from https://piano-e-competition.com/midi_2018.asp
b. Open Pianoteq, choose your preferred playback settings.  I chose "Steinway D Classical" with no modifications.
c. Load the first MIDI file into Pianoteq, then click Export to audio file under the File Menu of Pianoteq.
d. Save the audio file with your preferred name.
e. Repeat steps c and d, but this time choose the other version of the MIDI file.  Make no changes to the playback settings (done in step b)

Now you can do your own ABX test, following the steps I gave earlier.

I cannot speak to how the standard MIDI file was created from the original performance, captured in XP MIDI format. However, reading the description (https://piano-e-competition.com/midiinstructions.asp) gives me every reason to believe that this conversion was done with care.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

klaberte wrote:

Good luck with the SL 88 Grand.  Please share your experiences here.

Bought it yesterday.
The very first impression: it's not my Bechstein . But I didn't expect that, of course. When I've tried the VPC 1 some weeks ago in the shop, I thought the same.

After a very short while, I really enjoyed playing with it. A big improvement over my ES 110 (which I still like).
With my favourite Steinway D sounds over headphones, it's very inspiring to play and to improvise. I like the overall feel of the keyboard.

No one posted velocity curves so far - but even in linear mode on both sides it was not bad. I went through Pianoteq's calibration mode - and liked the result. This keyboard even has "note off velocity" - I didn't know that.

I'm already sure that I'll keep it.
That I'll have to pay extra for a note stand (and a dynamic damper pedal) is a bit sad...

Martin

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

I’m glad now you got a board to your liking!  Admittedly, I had been concerned if a purchasing plan of yours was indeed ethical...

MartinGr wrote:

I'll buy the SL88 Grand tomorrow evening to try it.

But, if it is truly a keeper it’s no worry.

I may add; a broad range of note-off velocities seems a welcomed addition to closer mimic the action of the acoustic.

klaberte wrote:

I cannot speak to how the standard MIDI file was created from the original performance, captured in XP MIDI format. However, reading the description (https://piano-e-competition.com/midiinstructions.asp) gives me every reason to believe that this conversion was done with care.

If my memory serves, I read somewhere that a software developed by Dr. John Q. Walker as an entrepreneur was in fact used.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Best controller recommendations (under $1000)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

I’m glad now you got a board to your liking!  Admittedly, I had been concerned if a purchasing plan of yours was indeed ethical...

MartinGr wrote:

I'll buy the SL88 Grand tomorrow evening to try it.

I think as ethical as possible in these days. Shops are closed in Germany, but I could buy it outside at the back door. Still better than shipping, I think. No one needs to save Thomann, but I hope that JustMusic will still have a real shop in the future.
I try to avoid buying online wherever possible at the moment.

Martin