Topic: Best piano for mix
What piano and settings do you choose for mix? Have you come up with some specific setting that fits the project in any case and situation?
Last edited by Romariozen (14-07-2020 14:32)
- Luc Henrion
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Re: Best piano for mix
I don't think this is possible... there are so many components in so many different styles of music...
Usually, I record both a MIDI and an audio track so that I can even change the piano itself when mixing.
It happened more often than I thought it would !
- Deyvidpetro
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Re: Best piano for mix
To be honest I actually struggle to get a good mix from Pianoteq, I find it can be too thin and I struggle to get the middle of board to punch through. I tend to lean toward Keyscape when I want a piano in the mix.
- Romariozen
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Re: Best piano for mix
Deyvidpetro wrote:
To be honest I actually struggle to get a good mix from Pianoteq, I find it can be too thin and I struggle to get the middle of board to punch through. I tend to lean toward Keyscape when I want a piano in the mix.
Honestly, I don't understand what you mean. Did you try K2 mix recording? It has some compressor and clean sound
- Deyvidpetro
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Re: Best piano for mix
I have actually completely forgotten about the K2 will try that setting.
I find Pianoteq is great on its own but when in a busier mix I struggle it where I want it. Whereas Keyscape it just fits right in like a jigsaw piece.
- Professor Leandro Duarte
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Re: Best piano for mix
Sample-based pianos sound better by default because of the natural ambience. In the case of modeling-based pianos, both for the Pianoteq and the Piano V (Arturia), the user must make an improvement of the ambience using appropriate reverb or moving the microphones in a way that promotes "distance from the acoustic source" (more environment). Close and dry sounds (pianoteq) sound more realistic on their own, but they don't mix very well because the others sound dirty and wet. This is one of the reasons that guitarists and bass players prefer microphoned cubes instead of being connected in line.
Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria
- Borealis
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Re: Best piano for mix
I think it depends on personal preferences (if you're into jazz, pop...). Some add-ons have a rich sound.
- musicjunk
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Re: Best piano for mix
Deyvidpetro wrote:
To be honest I actually struggle to get a good mix from Pianoteq, I find it can be too thin and I struggle to get the middle of board to punch through. I tend to lean toward Keyscape when I want a piano in the mix.
that surprises me
what kind of music do you make?
do you mix and master for many years or are you new in the mix world?
- Amen Ptah Ra
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Re: Best piano for mix
As an amateur audio engineer (mixer) I need help from an outside source that is a plugin or two or even more whenever I’m intending mixing PIANOTEQ with another VST. Unlike Keyscape, which comes with loads of presets designed (compressed, equalized, Etc.) specifically to mimic the familiar sounds from some slew of contemporary hits, of no consequence PIANOTEQ you use with its presets of no specific identifiable recordings. (None has yet been at least identified.) So, you mix as though you’re fresh approaching a physical piano in an actual recording session.
Personally, I imagine Keyscape presets came about someway likely from a form of questionnaire if not an established rapport with the individual song mixers who are known industry leaders! Nevertheless, their studio famous recordings have to have been studied, since Keyscape includes very accurate reproductions of some of the widely sought after instrumentations from the hit songs themselves. Incidentally, if any of the Keyscape samples were recorded as already suggested via both line level and mic input you have to assume preamps of course were somehow involved in making Keyscape samples.
PIANOTEQ according to its manual might mix well with others when it’s used in its binaural mode. In any event among various plugins I as amateur mixer myself learn from my using it with plugins which are compression and equalization artificial intelligence (A.I.) based.
They will often even out too broad dynamics and remove resonances that are maybe just fine for a solo piano but are unnecessary and get too frequently in the way of other instruments in a mix. Even if I decide later to use other compressors and equalizers, settings derived from A.I. I may transfer onto the other plugins, as I will have eventually figured in their effectiveness. I’m really learning much from A.I.!
If they interest you you get A.I. based plugins from sonible, https://www.sonible.com/.
Have any tried using bus compression on a piano in a mix?
Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (09-08-2020 02:23)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.
- Dick van Dyke
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Re: Best piano for mix
Hi, for K2 and YC5 you could try the Mix Recording preset special to fit in the mix.
- Deyvidpetro
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Re: Best piano for mix
Thank you I will check it out, sounds interesting.
I was thinking as well that it would good it you could mix the mics separately as well in your DAW so have the piano and all of the mics you are using routed to different channels in your DAW. I think this would open up a lot of possibilities and help Pianoteq sit better in a mix no matter what presets you are using.
- NormanP
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Re: Best piano for mix
I also use Pianoteq for rehearsal with my band and I had to do some adjustments because I also struggled.
First like you supposed I do the mixing of microphone positions in my DAW. Also I find the GUI for that Pianoteq very complicated (small hint for further improvement
I used the microphone positions found in a tutorial for piano recording. Also I listened to some recordings. For example "I'm all over it" from the great Jamie Cullum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFQvGtRzYA
What I noticed was that the Piano has way less resonances and the dampers seem very effective. So I shortened the damping duration to 0.67( but higher in the lower register to still get the ringing in the bass notes) and took the resonances down to around 0.5. Also I saw that the dynamic in the high register is higher. I took that down too. In the Action I increased the sustain pedal noise. What I really like is, even every single note gets this soft noise added to the attack without playing the pedal.
For Reverb I use the dragonfly reverb plugin. These are free algorithmic reverbs. There I use a highpass to filter out the rumbling of the key noise.
Another recording I used as reference is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxuIKjZEiQ
here you can also hear the effective damper.
Hope this helps.
I struggle a bit with settings with very close mics. I tend to put the microphones further away.
- NormanP
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Re: Best piano for mix
made a short demo song with a piano in the mix. I am not a sound engineer so there will be a lot room for improvements
- Qexl
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Re: Best piano for mix
DeyvidPetro wrote:
I was thinking as well that it would good it you could mix the mics separately as well in your DAW so have the piano and all of the mics you are using routed to different channels in your DAW. I think this would open up a lot of possibilities and help Pianoteq sit better in a mix no matter what presets you are using.
That's a good intuitive way to look at it. Separate mic outs is something worth having.
That said, I might also accomplish it this way (works the same - just a process which will allow more advantages/options/control)..
* on track 1 (a Pianoteq performance MIDI), click off all but 1 mic.
* next, "bounce" that to a new audio track by itself.
* repeat that same trick for each mic.
* now you have for example 3 new audio tracks, each clear single mics. Just mute or even remove the 1st Pianoteq VST track (esp. if complex project needs CPU).
You can process each new audio track separately with FX & reverbs or panning for something unique, or you could just route these 3 tracks through a common FX chanel (which may give a more coherent sound). Hopefully your DAW will allow you to do things like side-chanel the returning FX which can aid in a definite sense of separation of piano and reverbs.
On each new track you might insert unique chanel FX too, even if you don't tend to route to a dedicated FX chanel(s).
So many things possible to do - following instincts, ear and experimenting will always find a key way to get a desired result, for mix or solo too really. Unlimited ways to break things into component parts and re-assemble.
A mix is unique - so to me, it's always going to come down to cutting or highlighting certain frequencies and other tricks which might add or subtract to allow space in the whole tonal range for other instruments or vocals to shine.
@NormanP - really cool demo and good vids there, thanks!
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments) - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors
- danielmiclos
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Re: Best piano for mix
IMHO any Pianoteq preset use to mix a lot better when you change the output to binaural, adjust the damping duration, turn off all the effects and use external plugins for compression and ambience.
In fact I hate the Pianoteq reverb, I tend to turn it off even when I just playing a bit.
If you pay atention to the keyscape first piano preset, it sounds kind of a mix of binaural with a line out. Maybe it's the same thing as the electric piano samples where the mechanical part is binaural and you can mix it with the direct output, but in the piano you can't adjust it. I don't know, I'm just guessing.