Topic by BTMASS

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Topic: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

I wonder if anyone might be able to help me in making the right cable connections for the system I use.  I currently use Pianoteq 6 Pro running on a Surface Pro 7.  My Kawai MP11 keyboard is attached via USB to Host cable from the Kawai to the Surface Pro and then the Surface Pro’s stereo headphone jack goes via stereo TRS into the input of the Kawai.  The Kawai’s stereo TRS output then goes to my Chord HugoTT (inputting as RCA connections) and onwards to a pair of stereo speakers (unpowered, normal Hifi speakers).  That all works fine and allows me to use either the Pianoteq physically modelled sounds or the Kawai’s samples and - if needed - mix between the two sources via the input control on the MP11.

I also have a Roland Integra 7 synth and (shortly) a MOTU M4 audio interface that I would like to include in the setup but am getting a bit confused as the best way to connect everything so it all works and in the most low latency operation.

Anyone have any suggestions how I can best connect everything up?  I have (hopefully) been able to upload a picture showing all the connectivity options of the four pieces of kit.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance!

Connections

https://imgbox.com/UlbN71YS

Last edited by BTMASS (14-06-2020 18:35)
Pianoteq 7 Pro / Surface Pro7
Kawai MP11 / Roland Integra 7 / Focusrite 18i20 3G / Genelec 8341 & 7350 SAM

Reply by MeDorian

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

BTMASS wrote:

I wonder if anyone might be able to help me in making the right cable connections for the system I use.  I currently use Pianoteq 6 Pro running on a Surface Pro 7.  My Kawai MP11 keyboard is attached via USB to Host cable from the Kawai to the Surface Pro and then the Surface Pro’s stereo headphone jack goes via stereo TRS into the input of the Kawai.  The Kawai’s stereo TRS output then goes to my Chord HugoTT (inputting as RCA connections) and onwards to a pair of stereo speakers (unpowered, normal Hifi speakers).  That all works fine and allows me to use either the Pianoteq physically modelled sounds or the Kawai’s samples and - if needed - mix between the two sources via the input control on the MP11.

I also have a Roland Integra 7 synth and (shortly) a MOTU M4 audio interface that I would like to include in the setup but am getting a bit confused as the best way to connect everything so it all works and in the most low latency operation.

Anyone have any suggestions how I can best connect everything up?  I have (hopefully) been able to upload a picture showing all the connectivity options of the four pieces of kit.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance!

Connections

https://imgbox.com/UlbN71YS

Just had a look at some reviews regarding the Chord Hugo TT, seems like a great unit but it might be causing latency due to it's processing? This latency (if in fact there actually is any?) would not be a problem for play back, but latency is easily detected when playing (Pianoteq).

A quick test would be to have the line out from the Surface Pro straight to your Hi Fi amp. Also this would not require audio going through your MP 11, I presume this is so balanced cables could be used with the Chord Hugo TT?

I was wondering if the Surface Pro has line out as apposed to headphone out? Not a big deal but line out is preferable because it doesn't have that extra pre amp (line out on PC is not fully 'line out level' having it's own volume control unlike Hi Fi line level).

Just some ideas to try, seems latency is the problem here, hope this helps, Nick

Reply by dklein

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

The Surface Pro tablet does not have a separate line out, but has a USB out which I use to connect to my Steinberg UR-22 mk II external sound card.  That box I use for connections to my keyboard's MIDI input, my powered monitor speakers output, and my headphones.  I control output volume via the twist-knob potentiometer on the UR-22.

- David

Reply by BTMASS

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

Thanks for the replies MeDorian and dklein.  Much appreciated!

@MeDorian - I guess the Chord setup could be adding some latency as once it gets to the HugoTT DAC pre amp it then connects via balanced XLR to the TToby power amp.  Thus the signal path is pretty long between hitting a key on the Kawai and the sound exiting the speakers - Kawai ---> Surface Pro (Pianoteq) ---> HugoTT ---> TToby ---> speakers.

@dklein - I will try Surface Pro to MOTU M4 when it arrives via USB.  BTW - do you use a midi input cable for the Steinberg UR-22 mk II external sound card or a USB to host cable?

Pianoteq 7 Pro / Surface Pro7
Kawai MP11 / Roland Integra 7 / Focusrite 18i20 3G / Genelec 8341 & 7350 SAM

Reply by MeDorian

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

dklein wrote:

The Surface Pro tablet does not have a separate line out, but has a USB out which I use to connect to my Steinberg UR-22 mk II external sound card.  That box I use for connections to my keyboard's MIDI input, my powered monitor speakers output, and my headphones.  I control output volume via the twist-knob potentiometer on the UR-22.

I was meaning in Windows or settings to change the output from headphones to line out. It might auto detect the signal perhaps been only the one stereo socket.....it might even serve as a line in if software options were available for the Surface pro?

And BTMASS, I did read somewhere that the Chord Hugo TT has 63 ms latency but I can't be 100% on this information.

Better remove the Chord Hugo TT (at least temporary) from the system first to see if it is causing latency. I would also check headphones with the Surface Pro to rule out any computer setup issues. Nick

Last edited by MeDorian (16-06-2020 20:57)

Reply by MeDorian

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

BTMASS wrote:

I wonder if anyone might be able to help me in making the right cable connections for the system I use.  I currently use Pianoteq 6 Pro running on a Surface Pro 7.  My Kawai MP11 keyboard is attached via USB to Host cable from the Kawai to the Surface Pro and then the Surface Pro’s stereo headphone jack goes via stereo TRS into the input of the Kawai.  The Kawai’s stereo TRS output then goes to my Chord HugoTT (inputting as RCA connections) and onwards to a pair of stereo speakers (unpowered, normal Hifi speakers).  That all works fine and allows me to use either the Pianoteq physically modelled sounds or the Kawai’s samples and - if needed - mix between the two sources via the input control on the MP11.

I also have a Roland Integra 7 synth and (shortly) a MOTU M4 audio interface that I would like to include in the setup but am getting a bit confused as the best way to connect everything so it all works and in the most low latency operation.

Anyone have any suggestions how I can best connect everything up?  I have (hopefully) been able to upload a picture showing all the connectivity options of the four pieces of kit.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance!

Connections

https://imgbox.com/UlbN71YS

That amp you have looks great, just had a look at the specs! I can see now why you require balanced XLR and the Moto will obviously have these (or balanced TRS) and the Surface Pro doesn't.

Are you able to use the amp without the Chord Hugo pre amp and use the Moto (when you receive it) as a pre amp?

Reply by dklein

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

BTMASS wrote:

@dklein - I will try Surface Pro to MOTU M4 when it arrives via USB.  BTW - do you use a midi input cable for the Steinberg UR-22 mk II external sound card or a USB to host cable?

I use a MIDI input cable as that is what my QRS PNO-Scan II outputs.

- David

Reply by BTMASS

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

MeDorian wrote:

Are you able to use the amp without the Chord Hugo pre amp and use the Moto (when you receive it) as a pre amp?

I'm not totally sure MeDorian.  I guess when it arrives I'll be doing lots of investigation whilst desperately trying not to blow kit up!  I'm well above my pay grade here....

Currently I'm planning to go Kawai (USB to host) to Surface Pro (Pianoteq) -->  Surface Pro Headphone out to Kawai input -->  Kawai output to MOTU -->  Integra 7 to MOTU as well -->  MOTU output (Pianoteq + Kawai + Integra)  -->  Chord HugoTT  -->  Chord TToby -->  speakers. 

This should theoretically give me all three sources as it were using the MOTU as a mixer of sorts. Heavens know what sort of latency I'll be looking at then!!

Pianoteq 7 Pro / Surface Pro7
Kawai MP11 / Roland Integra 7 / Focusrite 18i20 3G / Genelec 8341 & 7350 SAM

Reply by MeDorian

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

BTMASS wrote:
MeDorian wrote:

Are you able to use the amp without the Chord Hugo pre amp and use the Moto (when you receive it) as a pre amp?

I'm not totally sure MeDorian.  I guess when it arrives I'll be doing lots of investigation whilst desperately trying not to blow kit up!  I'm well above my pay grade here....

Currently I'm planning to go Kawai (USB to host) to Surface Pro (Pianoteq) -->  Surface Pro Headphone out to Kawai input -->  Kawai output to MOTU -->  Integra 7 to MOTU as well -->  MOTU output (Pianoteq + Kawai + Integra)  -->  Chord HugoTT  -->  Chord TToby -->  speakers. 

This should theoretically give me all three sources as it were using the MOTU as a mixer of sorts. Heavens know what sort of latency I'll be looking at then!!

I think the above setup will give 'three' DACs running together when only one, the MOTU is required.

My guess would be Kawai USB to Surface Pro to be used as a MIDI controller -- Moto used in preferences as main audio device for Surface Pro-- Pianoteq should be able to run at 128 samples 48khz (or 64 samples maybe) and the headphone amp/output will be good on the MOTU-- I haven't checked the MOTU spec but presume it has audio line inputs to accommodate both the Integra 7 (up to 5 outs if I remember?) and Kawai audio outs (again I'm guessing it has onboard sounds). The next part I am stuck regarding the Chord Hugo...I believe it's a DAC (and might not even use ASIO drivers?).

Hopefully someone on the Forum might have some thoughts on the HI FI part? Nick

EDIT:  If the MOTU has balanced TRS outputs, then TRS 'balanced' to XLR cables can be used. My Zoom audio interface was used to send audio to XLR connected powered speakers. Still though the problem remains as to if these can 'safely' be plugged into the power amp? It might be worth considering powered monitors, or like me you have a good choice of Hi Fi amps and speakers in the attic.

Last edited by MeDorian (18-06-2020 02:16)

Reply by BTMASS

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

You’re right Nick.  I hadn’t really considered that.  I’m not quite sure the consequence of having several DACS in the system.  Hailing from a very basic HiFi background I’m also not clued up on whether the MOTU’s USB C connection with the Surface Pro would carry the audio without having to separately connect the headphone out of the surface Pro into the Motu – I presume so from your comments.  According to the manual the Motu has quarter-inch analogue inputs and outputs which are balanced (TRS) connectors that can also accept an unbalanced plug.  I do have a pair of Focal Solo 6 be active monitors in the system but in preference I’d rather use the Chord setup which connects to the much larger Spatial Audio Hologram M1 Turbo speakers on either side of the keyboard.  Your suggested setup sounds much better so I will give that a whirl first when the MOTU M4 arrives.  Very much appreciate your input!  Cheers!

Pianoteq 7 Pro / Surface Pro7
Kawai MP11 / Roland Integra 7 / Focusrite 18i20 3G / Genelec 8341 & 7350 SAM

Reply by MeDorian

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

BTMASS, yes the MOTU will be your default audio and you won't need to use the headphone out on the Surface Pro for anything. There is four audio inputs on the MOTU so you could use two stereo pairs, one for the Kawai and one for the Integra. Also I think there is four output channels available, enabling four channel audio in Pianoteq but this would require four speakers.

I would use the Focal Solo 6, at least at first because they will work and give low latency, the Chord I'm almost certain is causing latency problems.

EDIT: You could use the Focal speakers for actual playing, and then when you want to listen back to Pianoteq 'recently played' use the Chord setup as latency will not be an issue.

Last edited by MeDorian (18-06-2020 23:27)

Reply by BTMASS

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Re: Cable Connectivity Advice Sought - P6/Kawai/Roland

MeDorian wrote:

BTMASS, yes the MOTU will be your default audio and you won't need to use the headphone out on the Surface Pro for anything. There is four audio inputs on the MOTU so you could use two stereo pairs, one for the Kawai and one for the Integra. Also I think there is four output channels available, enabling four channel audio in Pianoteq but this would require four speakers.

Thanks again for your comments Nick.

Interesting thread here
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=1489

I may just try all four speakers in semi surround mode ;-)

I will have to try various setups to see if the Chord is adding latency.  I can also try Chord's own ASIO drivers.  I understand the MOTU's ASIO drivers are meant to be pretty good as well.

I'll keep you posted!

Pianoteq 7 Pro / Surface Pro7
Kawai MP11 / Roland Integra 7 / Focusrite 18i20 3G / Genelec 8341 & 7350 SAM