Topic: Yamaha CFIII FXP

https://forum.modartt.com/file/50a3onfr
https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=3883

Sorry for the cross post with another thread, but I figured a thread for the FXP was appropriate since most of the information is a bit buried in the other thread.

The Yamaha CFIII was the successor to the original 1960s CF (there was a CFII during the 70s but my understanding is that it wasn't dramatically different from the CF--I believe Glenn Gould ordered two of the CFII and used them in the last few albums before his death).  The CFIII was the top of Yamaha's production line until the updated CFIIIS in the 1990s.  Now, the CFX has totally replaced the CFIIIS line with a totally redesigned scaling and changes to the case and rim.  The CFI and CFII were very popular with pianists like Glenn Gould and Sviatoslav Richter.  The CFIII was extremely popular as well and featured in many recordings and famous performances.

The CFIII is unique in having an extended trichord range of seven more notes to cover the tenor bass bridge break.  Also, I believe, it's like most Yamaha grand pianos in having a single piece bridge instead of the usual bass and tenor bridges built separately.  The sound of the bass is stronger in the mid-bass and quieter in the low bass than most instruments of the same size because of the unique design.  Its fast action design and tonal qualities can make it a good choice for early and mid-19th century piano music, like Beethoven, Mendelssohn, or Chopin.

The sample is the piano roll of Godowsky playing the Chopin Op. 64 No. 2 Waltz.

After COVID, I'll try to get a chance to study one again to help refine elements of the FXP.  I believe there's one at a nearby University that's a CFIII not a CFX.

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Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

Interesting FXP.  Don't know the instrument itself so I can't comment on the accuracy, however still nice.

A particular point about the FXP was the Reverb setting in Effects.  It's set to use a WAV impulse file (I have some, but apparently not that particular one).  I've been using it with the "clean studio" reverb preset.   Works well, IMO and it's probably a better choice for distribution.

Thanks for the efforts.  Looking forward to seeing where you go with this FXP.

StephenG

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

Thank you!

Here's an updated version with a few bug fixes and ORTF configuration as requested in another thread: https://forum.modartt.com/file/bozvio27  It's such a pity I can't redistribute the Convolution Reverb files, but they're still free on an archived version of the site.  While I've never been able to fully confirm this, I fear that the original designer of these free convolution files passed away unexpectedly two years ago and his site and the terms of licensing weren't renewed or changed.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

Just tried v1.1 and it's a subtle but welcome change.  A few minor effects (maybe phasing ?) seem to be gone and the change to an built-in reverb is obviously useful.  Sounds really nice to my ear.  Reverb seems to be barely there - normally when I see "church" as reverb I expect some cavernous effect, but this is really very muted - possibly less than the clean-studio reverb I used for my own test of V1.0.

Tried it with binaural as well as the microphone setup you use and it seems to work well with both (not all FXPs do in my experience).

So nice changes from my point of view.  Thanks.

StephenG

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

That's nice. What if you made a Yamaha CFIII preset based on a Steinway D? Will it make any difference, or will it be the same?

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

AM20046 wrote:

That's nice. What if you made a Yamaha CFIII preset based on a Steinway D? Will it make any difference, or will it be the same?

I just tried a parameter freeze from the K2 to the Steinway D.  It sounds good, but that new preset is a littler "darker" and "rougher" and more "distant" than when the identical settings are used in the K2.  It's not a bad sound, but I would say it's a less authentic sound.  You can try it if you want by doing the same parameter freeze trick.

Each library/instrument of Pianoteq has many settings that even Pro users can't edit, which is why there are multiple libraries--otherwise we could just do a parameter freeze between each library in the demo mode and only need to buy one library/pack to have all PTQ pianos at once, which would be unethical, unfair to Modarrt, a probable violation of the EULA and potentially illegal.  None of which would be good...

Each library's propriety code or engine-side code contributes significantly to the character of the sound, and because each library is different in what user-side settings are available and how the engine interprets those settings, applying a parameter freeze will only change a percentage of how the instrument sounds.  When making a preset, my first step is to determine which library already sounds the most like the piano I want to emulate, and then I work from there--as I have the best chance of coming close to the original sound from the sound that seems the closest.

I chose the K2 because it's a more idealized piano sound (arguably its a more generic sound--too), which makes it serve as an easier starter point for most preset building than some of the (otherwise excellent) libraries that have more personality and character built into the sound (just look at the major difference between the default spectrum curve in the K2 and the Bluethner).  That said, any of the libraries can be used to make presets that resemble other makes and models of piano, but the less a library sounds like the result you want to begin with, the longer the amount of work it will take to get a good end-result and an ideal end-result may be impossible.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

Given that Covid-19 stops people from going to check what a CFIII sounds like this comparison of a CFX and a CFIII may be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESTwIyu3DY

StephenG

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

Any reason why you set the level so low (-14db). I don't think I have ever seen a preset with such a low setting.

tmyoung wrote:
AM20046 wrote:

That's nice. What if you made a Yamaha CFIII preset based on a Steinway D? Will it make any difference, or will it be the same?

I just tried a parameter freeze from the K2 to the Steinway D.  It sounds good, but that new preset is a littler "darker" and "rougher" and more "distant" than when the identical settings are used in the K2.  It's not a bad sound, but I would say it's a less authentic sound.  You can try it if you want by doing the same parameter freeze trick.

Each library/instrument of Pianoteq has many settings that even Pro users can't edit, which is why there are multiple libraries--otherwise we could just do a parameter freeze between each library in the demo mode and only need to buy one library/pack to have all PTQ pianos at once, which would be unethical, unfair to Modarrt, a probable violation of the EULA and potentially illegal.  None of which would be good...

Each library's propriety code or engine-side code contributes significantly to the character of the sound, and because each library is different in what user-side settings are available and how the engine interprets those settings, applying a parameter freeze will only change a percentage of how the instrument sounds.  When making a preset, my first step is to determine which library already sounds the most like the piano I want to emulate, and then I work from there--as I have the best chance of coming close to the original sound from the sound that seems the closest.

I chose the K2 because it's a more idealized piano sound (arguably its a more generic sound--too), which makes it serve as an easier starter point for most preset building than some of the (otherwise excellent) libraries that have more personality and character built into the sound (just look at the major difference between the default spectrum curve in the K2 and the Bluethner).  That said, any of the libraries can be used to make presets that resemble other makes and models of piano, but the less a library sounds like the result you want to begin with, the longer the amount of work it will take to get a good end-result and an ideal end-result may be impossible.

Last edited by aWc (20-05-2020 04:25)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

aWc wrote:

Any reason why you set the level so low (-14db). I don't think I have ever seen a preset with such a low setting.

Three reasons: it was a 5 mic preset which would be much louder and the person who requested the FXP asked for a single or ORTF pair which is quieter and I hadn't changed that back to compensate; working with DAWs having as much headroom as possible is recommended--it's not as big a deal as most DAWs now work at 32-bit float but I'm still in the old habit of -12 to -20db headroom--especially if you're mixing something else with it like an orchestra library or other audio tracks; and I've gotten a bunch of emails with people asking for lower volume presets.

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Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console

Re: Yamaha CFIII FXP

sjgcit wrote:

Given that Covid-19 stops people from going to check what a CFIII sounds like this comparison of a CFX and a CFIII may be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESTwIyu3DY

James' videos are always helpful!   I use his stuff constantly because of how consistent he usually is in miking and what he plays.  (It's unfortunate that this comparison had no Chopin or Bach like there usually is, which usually saves me tons of time by doing direct comparisons to piano rolls.)

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2xHiPcCsm29R12HX4eXd4J
Pianoteq Studio & Organteq
Casio GP300 & Custom organ console