Topic by samibe

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Topic: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

While I love how Organteq sounds and how it works, I have been a lot less impressed with the MIDI implementation. I have been using jOrgan with my organ because it is a fully customizable midi routing tool and GUI. jOrgan does not generate audio in an of itself. It sends the modified midi information to another program like Fluidsynth that then generates the audio.

I would really like to be able to access the Organteq engine from jOrgan. I would like to be able to modify the voicing, poliphony, and other parameters in Organteq, save that configuration, then access the inputs Organteq needs to function from jOrgan. That would make it so that I can control both Organteq and my organ with the added midi functionality of jOrgan.

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

It seems to me that Organteq's MIDI implementation is very full-featured and versatile. How does jOrgan enhance that functionality?

You don't mention which operating system you use. I installed jOrgan for Linux (a .deb package), and it runs, but how does one get jOrgan to recognize one's MIDI keyboard(s)?

What MIDI data do you want to send from your keyboard? (MIDI program changes, for example?) And what would you like that data to do in Organteq? (Activate a certain stop or stops, or a certain combination of stops?)

The jOrgan project seems problematic. Many of the webpage links of the project at Sourceforge.net (including the one in the Help menu of jOrgan itself) won't load (URL's not valid (or no longer valid)). jOrgan's documentation seems sparse. jOrgan requires the installation and configuration of other software (in Linux, acconnectgui, qjackctl, the snd-virmidi kernel module, for example).

I'm not sure that jOrgan is worth the effort, while I am very impressed with Organteq's (and Pianoteq's) full-functioned and versatile MIDI mapping included in the program itself without dependence upon outside intermediary software (such as jOrgan and its software dependencies).

So, why is jOrgan worth using with Organteq, exactly?

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (23-03-2020 21:21)
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Reply by samibe

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

I use Windows 10. To configure keyboards to jOrgan follow the instruction detailed here (https://jorgan.info/page2.html)
Organteq's MIDI implementation is very good and very easy to set up. However, as jOrgan is a MIDI router its midi implementation is way more complete, versatile and complicated/involved.
Currently:
- Organteq's GUI is not customizable (i.e. terraced console only, no divided expression)
- The number of stops in each division is limited
- Each rank's range is limited to 61 notes.
- The number of combination pistons is very limited
- There is no midi output (which I could use to drive the moving stops on my organ)
- The registration preset setup is weird (and doesn't allow me to use the preset pistons on my organ [which do produce midi signals])
- There really isn't a way to control the amount of unification, yet. (different stops that access the same rank of pipes)
- There are no combination memory banks (which is typical on most updated organs). Instead the user has to open another FPX file to get another 10 combinations.
- The audio routing is limited. I would like to be able to assign groups of stops/ranks to specific audio channels.
jOrgan can handle all of these issues with many different possible controller devices. However, it does usually take more time and effort to get it configured. For a single keyboard to have a nice organ patch, jOrgan is not worth the effort and Organteq sounds way better. With my organ that has 3 manuals, pedals, 80+ moving stops, 36 combination pistons, and 4 audio channels, Organteq isn't capable of accommodating my organ's functionality.

I realize that asking Modartt to accommodate my requirements when I am clearly in the minority for their clientele is a huge request. However, if it were possible for organteq to also be packaged as a sound engine (similar to FluidSynth) that handles the tone generation from the note, rank, and expression mdi data sent from an external program, then a program like jOrgan could be used to handle everything else (GUI customization, MIDI controller input/output/feedback, combination system memories, etc.)

Last edited by samibe (23-03-2020 23:11)

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

samibe wrote:

I use Windows 10. To configure keyboards to jOrgan follow the instruction detailed here (https://jorgan.info/page2.html)
...
- The registration preset setup is weird (and doesn't allow me to use the preset pistons on my organ [which do produce midi signals])
...
I realize that asking Modartt to accommodate my requirements when I am clearly in the minority for their clientele is a huge request. However, if it were possible for organteq to also be packaged as a sound engine (similar to FluidSynth) that handles the tone generation from the note, rank, and expression mdi data sent from an external program, then a program like jOrgan could be used to handle everything else (GUI customization, MIDI controller input/output/feedback, combination system memories, etc.)

Thanks for the link to jorgan.info. I'm going to try jOrgan on my Linux computer.

Which MIDI signals are produced by the preset pistons on your organ? Pressing a single piston produces what kind of MIDI signal? A program change or controller value? If so, those can be mapped in Organteq to a specific stop and its assigned rank of pipes, or to one of the coupler pedals, or to any of the available stop combinations.

From reading others' comments, it seems that quite a few people would be grateful for a larger quantity of rank-assignable stops per manual and more combination pistons, but you might be surprised at what Organteq's MIDI mapping can already accomplish, if you experiment with at a little.

Edit: jOrgan, while as you mention produces no audio itself, does indeed seem to have a lot of versatility and functionality in creating graphical interfaces to produce, trigger or control MIDI data, and a great deal of facility for various MIDI routings. But it's not very user friendly, a nuts-and-bolts construction kit to build a graphical user interface to associate with and control underlying MIDI commands and functions, from scratch, unless one starts with and customizes the work of others, the "dispositions" others have created for jOrgan.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (24-03-2020 15:36)
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Reply by samibe

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

Which MIDI signals are produced by the preset pistons on your organ? Pressing a single piston produces what kind of MIDI signal? A program change or controller value? If so, those can be mapped in Organteq to a specific stop and its assigned rank of pipes, or to one of the coupler pedals, or to any of the available stop combinations.

My pistons and stops produce note on/off messages

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

From reading others' comments, it seems that quite a few people would be grateful for a larger quantity of rank-assignable stops per manual and more combination pistons, but you might be surprised at what Organteq's MIDI mapping can already accomplish, if you experiment with at a little.

I've been experimenting more and have discovered more of Organteq's mapping capability. Some stuff isn't working for me, but it is likely user error.

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

Edit: jOrgan, while as you mention produces no audio itself, does indeed seem to have a lot of versatility and functionality in creating graphical interfaces to produce, trigger or control MIDI data, and a great deal of facility for various MIDI routings. But it's not very user friendly, a nuts-and-bolts construction kit to build a graphical user interface to associate with and control underlying MIDI commands and functions, from scratch, unless one starts with and customizes the work of others, the "dispositions" others have created for jOrgan.

jOrgan is not anywhere close to as user-friendly as Organteq and the documentation for more complicated setups is lacking. If jOrgan could utilize Organteq, it would be possible to put together a customized VPO and use Organteq's superior tone generation system for the important ranks and supplement it with some sample sets to fill in some of the things that Modartt doesn't want to deal with like percussions, rank extensions, obscure pipes, etc.

Last edited by samibe (25-03-2020 02:47)

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

samibe wrote:

My pistons and stops produce note on/off messages

Having pistons and stops on your organ that produce note on/off messages on MIDI channels different from those used by the keyboard manuals themselves make them ideal for setting or toggling stops and combinations in Organteq without producing sound, or controlling other functions of Organteq, using Organteq's MIDI mapping facility. If you can configure jOrgan, learning how to configure Organteq's MIDI mapping should be easy, and unlike jOrgan, Organteq has a fine manual (Help menu-->Organteq Manual).

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (25-03-2020 11:18)
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Reply by rjsilva

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Re: Organteq as a 'box of ranks'

samibe wrote:

- Each rank's range is limited to 61 notes.

The 'standard' for classic organs is a 61-note range, and changing that would be more significant than simply increasing the amount of keys. A lot of how an organ functions and its design has to do with physical pipes, and changing things just because Organteq does not use actual pipes is not as useful as it may seem. The organ's design is married to a vast amount of literature and expectations refined over a very long period of time by professional organists and creative builders. An organ's sound utilises the layering of pitch ranges (2', 4', 8', 16', etc.) with the pedals playing the lowest range. This allows for relatively easy colouring and contrapuntal writing, and more keys (depending on how many) could complicate things unnecessarily. The organ is similar to a synthesiser but not quite and treating it as such will miss a lot of what the organ excels at.