Piano always out of tune

Just above the keyboard on the Pianoteq panel is a slider labelled "Condition".  Make sure that is slid to the "Mint" setting.   If slid far to the right the piano will sound out-of-tune.   Of course the there is the "Tuning" sub-panel on the Pianoteq panel.  This is typically set to 440Hz and "equal temperament" which will give good tuning (unless you set Condition to "Worn").   However if you choose an unusual setting with the tuning pannel or load a Scala file with some strange tuning then the piano could may sound out of tune.

I also notice "Octave Stretching" doesn't go below 0.95, a setting of zero would mean no stretching right?

No other software, no special configuration, just out of the box. You can try yourself, just download any tuner  for Android, you'll see.

Thank you, that was a noticeable improvement, but far from being accurate, many notes are 2 cents off, several 3 or 4 cents off. So I guess I'll have to try Pianoteq Pro. Thank you.

I like your post tmyoung.  It appears both detailed and informative!

As a pro user I have found PIANOTEQ PRO limited to a minimum detune of a whole cent  —without any fraction of a cent possible.

Before the advent of modern DAWs, a band or orchestra was recorded only after it was tuned to a piano properly er painstakingly as viewed from a drummer, me.  If you record several instruments in a mix and you're wanting those to sound tuned, you have to remember Tuned is a relative term. 

You tune something to something else!

Be that a piano's temperament or anything entirely different, I suggest you consider Celemony and its Melodyne software.  Apparently it allows dynamic just intonation:

Try loading "Flat" temperament intead of "Equal".

Flat temperament, in Piantoeq, has a pre-computed, more static tuning layout designed to work more in tune with MIDI standard tuning, whereas the other tunings in Pianoteq, including its version of "Equal" are computed in real time (for realism).

Philippe, Julien and the Modartt team have of course deep reasoning for all this (It's kind of a big deal and groundbreaking IMV).

Upshot is, you should still be able to tune "Flat" to suit MIDI standard accompanying instruments.

NOTE: Tuning in Pianoteq is actually capable of editing 'the numbers' to one tenth of a cent btw, in the advanced tuning panel.

Insta-view a series between 1 standard note and the next:

100.0
100.1
100.2
100.3
100.4
100.5
100.6
100.7
100.8
100.9
101.0

Computing those steps against all other factors within a given tuning, gives so much freedom and deep microtonal flexibility for example yet with realistic and almost infinte further granularity due to string stretching, tensioning computed in real time down to harmonics and overtone structures, natural inharmonicity as like reality.

Without too much extra blurb, we can definitely push and pull the tuning around in both realistic and un-realistic ways. That can go into great depth esp. inre: microtonal tuning.

Pianoteq'a tuning system isn't broken, it's ready for all kinds of things beyond standard MIDI tuning. The learning curves you encounter with Pianoteq are so worth the time.

Yes, using Flat is a good additional correction to those settings.  Nice catch, Qexl!

I should add that if you use the per-note "Detune" window under Note Edit, you are limited to per-note variations of one cent, but if you open the Advanced Tuning window--where the main scale of the temperament is loaded--that's where the 10ths of a cent can be edited.  So, essentially, if you are altering the main scale of the instrument (which is how a technician starts tuning a piano is the series of notes between Middle C and Tenor C--if a technician has no device other than a tuning fork, they'll start with Concert A to 440 and then make the intervals to other notes in an order like A, F, C, G, D, A#, D#, G#, C#, etc. but the order you choose when tuning by ear can "color" or "flavor" the tuning slightly if you're tuning to fifths, fourths, thirds, or sixths by ear and that's usually the longest and most careful part of tuning a piano).

Also, if Flat temperament doesn't totally fix the issues in addition to the other settings suggestions, you can use the Detune Note Edit Window (which is available in both Standard and Pro) to fix the per note 2-4 cent errors, if any remain after loading Flat tuning.  Right clicking in that window gives you even great flexibility in how you edit each note.  You can also cut and paste tuning data into that window, which allows you to bring the data into a text editor to save time trying to do it with a mouse.

Here is a (very long) video that shows the basic process of tuning a piano, showing a little of doing it by ear and a little of doing it by an electronic device.  Note how relaxed he is when it comes to precise or mathematical differences in tuning between strings (things like fractions of a cent); because of the reality that tuning pins are pushed into very densely laminated wood that rests against the harp and that's all that's keeping them in place: the slightest change in temperature or humidity can put a string or pin significantly out of tune.  I remember a technician friend at a university demonstrated that rubbing his finger for a second on a string was enough to pull the string audibly below tune.  He also noted that they tuned their pianos to 443 or higher in the recital hall, because the spot lights warmed the piano enough to bring the piano well below tune, so they had to tune the piano sharp while the lights were off.  They also had significant problems selecting diapason for performances with piano and orchestra, because fixed pitch American instruments (percussion and woodwinds) were often locked into 440hz Diapason, while newer instruments from European makers were fixed at 442hz, so they agreed to 441hz for the pianos to get the best average between those distinct sounds (a trick I always use in PTQ when pairing it with VSL or Embertone).  This also works in much the way the solo violinists tune: they tune to the highest "A" in the music they'll preform, because it makes the instrument sound more brilliant against the orchestra--tuning the piano slightly high to 441 or 442 will likewise make it sound a little brighter against the 440 instruments.  This same tech also noted that he had to retune every concert/recital piano--across the entire range of each piano--at least twice a day, and any time the weather changed, it could go up to at least 4 or 5 times each day to keep the instruments in performance condition.  It's crazy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNLHYNn75Hk

And I completely agree, Qexl!

That's not to say that you shouldn't look into the various tuning possibilities suggested! I'm a fully qualified pianotuner myself so understand the enjoyment that can be had when making a piano sound just how you want it. But for now you may prefer a simpler solution if indeed you find it works for you.

If you whisper to the key, then it can shift the order by 1/40 cents ..)) but is it noticeable?
Yes, I also return to checking the middle string in choirs ..
An interesting idea about emphasizing overtones in unison. Gradually, this is revealed to me .. and the skill appears ..

I agree completely.  I doubt there could even be mechanized or laboratory conditions that would permit that across an entire instrument, let alone on an instrument that's going to be played.

I remember on my old upright, occasionally notes would slip out of tune with a week of tuning, just because the 1928 instrument's rusted strings and tired pinboard couldn't really take any slight adjustment--let alone a pitch raise.  No amount of passion for that piano kept it in tune.  There was one dichord--a D string, I think--that slipped significantly out of tune on a regular basis after maintenance (I think the string had snapped the year before and had been repaired).  The tech came back and tuned it a few days later, set the pin harder, and two days later it was out again.  He glued it, and two days later, the glue failed and it dropped tune, so finally he just found the strongest epoxy he could and glued it twice in two days, which happily worked: I don't know what outside of a rebuild would have been an option if it hadn't because you can't do that much to "reset" a pin without replacing all of them.  There are just factors in the real world, like that notorious string, that put practical boundaries on perfection.

Mathematical tuning just doesn't exist for pianos, or if it does, it's gone in seconds.

I'd be curious to know from the OP, if there is a particular need for having less than 1 cent accuracy for a project?  Is it because it will pair with synthesized or electronic instruments and the slightest beating would be a problem--where an e-piano or similar substitute might serve better?  Do other pianos--especially sampled ones--have a better level of tuning accuracy than PTQ?  Do the tuning app and microphone and other equipment used in this test have an guaranteed level of accuracy?

Yes, that does demonstrate well the advantages of the Pianoteq engine.

Gives great context to the control for "Unison Balance" in Pianoteq.

We can alter it for the whole piano in Standard and Pro: right-click "Unison Width" to find it.

Or any strings or ranges, as one of the editable features in per note edit mode in Pro.

Altering unison balance seems to shift bias a little from the 'centre string', or theoretically the central 'pitch' to the lower, or higher of the unison pitches per note.

It can give fine change to aspects of the way the whole piano tuning behaves and can improve the fidelity in crowded music (with many notes/chords, high velocities esp. bass harmonies etc.). Or it can just seem to make a piano sweeter or a little more sour, if that's the goal.

When straight up A/B testing, some chords might show little has changed - but playing something with lots of action (or listening in the MIDI player) can help - replay/listen/try new number.

I've noticed so far, the settings I mostly use for unison balance, are numbers between -0.2 and +0.4 - interested to know if others enjoy results from adjusting this control and other observations?

That's quite alright with me that maybe a guy just wants to tune a piano to his phone app.  Agreed, no big deal.

This thread now has over twenty responses because the original title was "Piano always out of tune".  Some people wanted to help; others wanted clarification; still others offered explanations.  The best part of this discussion is that many ideas were floated and the topic was discussed with dignity and respect for fellow Pianoteq forum members.  No flaming has occurred, nor does it need to occur.

Cheers and all the best,

Joe

Oh my goodness,

I failed to see the humor you had originally intended in your twice previous post!  You are absolutely right:  if someone is going to acquire a $six-figure piano or a Strad violin, of COURSE they would not use a $4.00 phone app to tune the instrument.

Several years ago, just for fun, I purchased a Korg hardware guitar tuner and another brand of hardware tuner (each~$25-$20) that has a piezoelectric pickup, both equipped only with equal temperament tuning, which is ironic for the tuning of guitars.  Both tuners were fun to play with, but their accuracies of display were nowhere near what was required to tune a piano with any type of good sound in all keys.  I actually gave one of them to my Church's choir director, because he wanted to have a hand at tuning his own piano.  I told him that, at best, he might be able to lay the bearings (tune the middle one or two octaves) of his own personal piano, but that he would have to tune the octaves by ear.  I never heard from that person any results he had gotten from trying to tune his own piano.

It took me approximately five years (1968-1972 or -73) before I was able to tune a piano with enough assurance that the instrument was in tune, to the extent I could tune other peoples' or institutions' pianos.

Cheers,

Joe

Well, if one is a perfectionist, I suppose that one might be frustrated at the intentional out-of-tune-ness that musicians and music lovers must suffer, since equal-temperament (like so many other tunings) is an elaborate and precise out-of-tune compromise, and in a piano in particular, both octave stretching and unison-string detuning are intentionally out of tune, the former to adjust for the slightly-sharp harmonics of low/long strings and the decay-to-flat characteristic of the short, highly tensioned strings of the upper extreme of piano keys, and the latter to create subtle beats between unison strings for depth and richness, like the vibrato of an opera singer.

It is the out-of-tuneness of equal temperament, and its complex harmonic nature, that made the music of classical and romantic period composers such as Chopin, Ravel, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, and Rachmaninov possible, as well as all more modern music including jazz and any music that changes key or tonal center (sometimes as frequently as the base-note and chord is changed in music).

So we can thank out-of-tuneness for a lot, if we are inclined to see the beauty in what might be considered "imperfection."