Topic: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

Well basically, If I play my piano Kawai CA78 but get the sound out from my nearfield monitor speakers the sound is good...

But what I would really like to do is to hear Pianoteq sound coming right from my very own piano speaker system in order to give much more sensation of reality while playing the piano.
I can easily achieve this and the sound its loud enough, BUT, while note by note the sound its not bad at all, the overall sound stays quite far from being Pianoteq rich sound with its reverberances etc etc etc.

It really is hard to explain what Im trying to, the sound its fine but its not at all a good playing experience, its even some sort of strange noises like coming from the piano own cabinet and I dont really now, does not sound as it should by miles

Some people say to me that could be due to the fact that my piano Kawai own speakers are not really prepared to get the most of Pianoteq sound but I have to say that if I play through the piano speakers music coming from other sources such Youtube videos etc etc, the sound its totally fine. Its not mindblowing but its totally fine

Im very much new to this tecnology things and specially to sound edition etc....
While I get some other things to try, suggestions and comments on this from you guys, I wonder if, by any chance, maybe taking advantage of the top of the range Pianoteq Pro note by note editing capabilities maybe I could somehow make Pianoteq sound better on my piano speakers?

Its a lot of money to buy it and try - apart that I have not clue and not musical ear - before knowing if this could perhaps sort my problem

What Im really looking for its simply play my piano with a full experience of playing my own piano with the sound coming through its own speakers BUT with Pianoteq sound. Can anybody help?

Thanks

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

1)  I have no experience with your particular keyboard.

2)  I really like Pianoteq through my near-field monitors, which I have on stands facing the ceiling to the left and right of my keyboard/upright piano (and added two small satellites facing me to supplement the treble).

3)  I once brought my PIanoteq on a tablet to my father's Yamaha Clavinova, using the Clavinova just as the keyboard with MIDI Out, and then feeding the sound from Pianoteq back into the input side of the Clavinova - it was quite disappointing!  The best that I could surmise is that Yamaha must manipulate/equalize their signal from the Clavinova so that it sounds rich and full on the Clavinova's internal speakers.  Pianoteq's flat output did not sound nearly as good on the Clavinova as Yamaha's own piano sounds did (and I don't even like the 6-series Clavinova's piano sound).

Perhaps someone else has more direct experience with your keyboard?

- David

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

@Jesús, what I say below is in regards to 'player' experience, not recording/monitoring.

First thing to be sure, you will not need to upgrade Pianoteq just for this purpose. There are many good reasons to upgrade - but you do have a lot of tools already for shaping your Pianoteq output in the effects panel. EQ for example.

I think you've already got to the bottom of some ideas (your Kawai dpiano is unlikely to reproduce other audio as well as it can repro its own piano sound).

Assuming the acoustic reason that accounts for why you like the Kawai experience most is because of the non-directional qualities of the audio produced by low placed speakers/board. I keep a CN series Kawai around - and enjoyed playing it for the same reasons you do I'm pretty sure.

However David really offers one of the best solutions, above, which comes at no extra cost for those of us who already have 2 stereo speakers (facing them upwards - and other extra speakers if wanting to complete the spacial illusion of a piano body emitting the audio).

There's no single correct way to turn your space into a simulation of a real piano - but that's a great starting point

Some things to keep in mind may include, keeping your dpiano position away from the walls and keeping speakers at a distance similar to a piano body (rather than up in your sweet spot for ordinary stereo listening), placing secondary speakers (for extra trebles or bass) in zones likely to match what's happening in your face while using a real piano.. so putting a small treble speaker slighlty to your right (where the treble strings are) and any bass speaker (sub woofer) further away and to the right (simulating where bass strings reside) and so on.

I posted this little doodle elsewhere summing up such a setup, hoping it helps along with David's good advice and experiences in this type of use case:

{}    KEFs or small nearfeilds
[]    Tanoys
 ^    facing up
 »    facing right
:)    happy pianist



              {}^»45°




        [ ]                [ ]


                      {}^
                    
        LlllLllLlllLllLlllLllLl
                   :)
                
                
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

Thanks all you guys for your answers

First is first, as I have a new discovery found out for a collegue who uses Pianoteq plus have my own piano model. He, while looking something else inside of the piano, discovered that our piano model which have two speakers facing up and another two speakers facing down.... the line in take on the piano is ONLY connected to the two top speakers but not connected to the other two extra speakers in the piano body so I guess this can be the reason

Either the above on its own is the reason or the above plus perhaps that the only two connected speakers are as you say, not equalised for outside sources such Pianoteq

In any case, your suggestions are good but not really "my ideal solution".
Actually I once, sometime ago, try it with the good enough nearfield speakers each at the very corners of the piano facing myself and at the time, I couldnt imagine that just by adding an extra two, even an extra 4 would give the "real thing". It would perhaps in loudness but not in that vibration feeling if you know what I mean

Also, my idea, as enjoying myself of a nice sound while playing, is also to record videos of my performances and being honest Im not looking forward to record videos of a "suppossed to be proper piano" all filled up with speakers all over the place if this make sense

Plus, my ear is little less than useless and unless the sound comes already matched to the greatest possible, I cant see myself tweeking Pianotek system in order to look for the best EQ combination, Im almost sure I would "f**k" things up instead of improving them

The only "best word thing" is that as the ex-owner of the Clavinova says, he experienced the same problem so at least, though this not make me happier, at least I can see that its not just something my make Kaway failed to do right but must be something happening on each digital piano regardless brand

A pity, I was hopping for a sort of "magical solution" but its has not happened despite its Xmas - at least you guys tried to help, thanks very much

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

Hey Jesús,

don't fret it as I see it no digital piano by itself with these small speakers can go much above allowing us something like above adequate "suspension of disbelief". They can't fill a room like a real (grand) piano - our brains do some of that work in translating our experience. There's a lot of tech and EQ they put into those dpiano speakers and it sounds great to many (and I loved my old Kawai for years for playing and composing, no complaints!) ... but it's not ever going to be the same as sitting right at a grand piano without headphones or large speakers, the rest is just up to us, whether we choose to put up with our smaller speakers or learn to love them or use them better in our own recordings, or learn some work-arounds over time.

This may sound strange - but I'm putting it here because, we're only on the planet a short time - go to a local venue (play house, pub/club, music hall) - explain what you're doing - ask "May I experience a real piano on a stage" - go to local or distant music stores to play real pianos, different types. It helps perspectives - and sometimes this will answer everything by itself in time

For maximum result of realism, a lot of eyes are on new full sized wood piano bodies fitted with sound board and transducers (coupled with Pianoteq, we have 1 practically real piano, with unlimited piano sounds).. you can buy one of those right now and voila, you have a real piano in your room - but if we're interested in doable D.I.Y. projects at home...

Pianoteq on monitors to me, is 100% better than my Kawai dpiano speakers.

Jesús wrote:

Im not looking forward to record videos of a "suppossed to be proper piano"

This ^^^^^

What you say there, is exactly why I nowadays try to speak about "playing real piano" vs. "recording piano for others to listen to".. for a long time, I overlooked how many of these interesting discussions on the forum was full of people speaking about totally and really extremely different things often.

It can't be expressed enough - when someone says "I want a more realistic piano sound" I may hear "Tune your EQ".. others will say "Put bigger speakers in".. but it almost takes a questionairre to be filled in, so we can give each other better answers heh

The sitting and playing piano is 1000% different to recording piano - and while there are historical mic arrays, conventions about player perspective, audience perspective etc.. when we ourselves may begin trying to learn "How do I record this for others to enjoy" - well, to say the least, there's a life-time of things to learn - and best we can do is jump across huge time-sinks by trying to learn some things from those interested in offering genuine perspective (which often may seem weird until we experience "why they say those things".)

Never stop learning and keep on playing - the most important things to enjoy in life.

We're all in a life-long learning process and part of the fun is realising how our needs change also as we travel our timeline.

A strange thing we humans can do, is become attached to a sound, a feeling or association of loose truths we hold regarding our experience of these elements and ideas.. I too could subjectively enjoy my small dpiano speakers but in all honesty it was nothing like a real piano in a room, just a level of realism giving adequate suspension of disbelief - so letting go of some things can free us up for other discoveries, often with greater payoffs.

So, moving to monitors for piano playing may feel different for a time - but eventually it will be better than hoping our inbuilt dpiano speakers can be re-purposed or used for other sounds.. it's possible that you could wire things up with a soldering iron - but that's something I'm OK without doing because I'm OK with monitors and prefer that now to be sure (as replacement for 'real piano' experience).

Youtube videos - that's great and wish you well with it - and might have changed advice first given

In that case, it's probably primarily important to set up a more standard kind of studio rather than cobble together a non-standard space taking project. Like everything, equipment goes a long way towards any result but there are no single perfect choices along that road.. and just a few speakers in front of us while we are at our dpiano might be awesome and nothing more needs doing.

Some good headphones with binaural output might be something to try if you haven't already - that way, you don't need to worry about new large speakers or changing your space for the experience you are after. I would say that is beyond adequate "suspension of disbelief" for me, yet there are trillions of other choices from there, a DAW, plugins, an audio interface, headphone amp etc.. or no extras - whatever works for you is the only truly correct answer - and again spend adequate time on finding your preferences.. time spent at music stores, online looking at equipment, reading reviews, hearing samples/demos etc. - it's not all wasted time as long as you keep some time for your piano too

If you're happy now with your current near-fields (for recording/mixing) but want better 'real piano sound in the room' also, maybe keep an eye out for large pre-loved stereo speakers for sale (sometimes old speakers in a used home stereo decades old = extreme bargain).. maybe if you place those down on the floor your Youtube audience won't even notice your studio has extra speakers unless you want them to know of your decision to apply them.

Jesús wrote:

A pity, I was hopping for a sort of "magical solution" but its has not happened despite its Xmas - at least you guys tried to help, thanks very much

Regarding a magical solution - No mistake - Larger speakers can help with the feeling of the extraordinary forces from a real piano, shake your innards and the room of course.

You may not need 15inch Tannoy Gold speakers in solid hardwood cabinets or KEFs.. but hoping you have joy from the journey - That's the best I can wish for us all this Xmas

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

Qexl wrote:

Hey Jesús,

don't fret it as I see it no digital piano by itself with these small speakers can go much above allowing us something like above adequate "suspension of disbelief". They can't fill a room like a real (grand) piano - our brains do some of that work in translating our experience. There's a lot of tech and EQ they put into those dpiano speakers and it sounds great to many (and I loved my old Kawai for years for playing and composing, no complaints!) ... but it's not ever going to be the same as sitting right at a grand piano without headphones or large speakers, the rest is just up to us, whether we choose to put up with our smaller speakers or learn to love them or use them better in our own recordings, or learn some work-arounds over time.

This may sound strange - but I'm putting it here because, we're only on the planet a short time - go to a local venue (play house, pub/club, music hall) - explain what you're doing - ask "May I experience a real piano on a stage" - go to local or distant music stores to play real pianos, different types. It helps perspectives - and sometimes this will answer everything by itself in time

For maximum result of realism, a lot of eyes are on new full sized wood piano bodies fitted with sound board and transducers (coupled with Pianoteq, we have 1 practically real piano, with unlimited piano sounds).. you can buy one of those right now and voila, you have a real piano in your room - but if we're interested in doable D.I.Y. projects at home...

Pianoteq on monitors to me, is 100% better than my Kawai dpiano speakers.

Jesús wrote:

Im not looking forward to record videos of a "suppossed to be proper piano"

This ^^^^^

What you say there, is exactly why I nowadays try to speak about "playing real piano" vs. "recording piano for others to listen to".. for a long time, I overlooked how many of these interesting discussions on the forum was full of people speaking about totally and really extremely different things often.

It can't be expressed enough - when someone says "I want a more realistic piano sound" I may hear "Tune your EQ".. others will say "Put bigger speakers in".. but it almost takes a questionairre to be filled in, so we can give each other better answers heh

The sitting and playing piano is 1000% different to recording piano - and while there are historical mic arrays, conventions about player perspective, audience perspective etc.. when we ourselves may begin trying to learn "How do I record this for others to enjoy" - well, to say the least, there's a life-time of things to learn - and best we can do is jump across huge time-sinks by trying to learn some things from those interested in offering genuine perspective (which often may seem weird until we experience "why they say those things".)

Never stop learning and keep on playing - the most important things to enjoy in life.

We're all in a life-long learning process and part of the fun is realising how our needs change also as we travel our timeline.

A strange thing we humans can do, is become attached to a sound, a feeling or association of loose truths we hold regarding our experience of these elements and ideas.. I too could subjectively enjoy my small dpiano speakers but in all honesty it was nothing like a real piano in a room, just a level of realism giving adequate suspension of disbelief - so letting go of some things can free us up for other discoveries, often with greater payoffs.

So, moving to monitors for piano playing may feel different for a time - but eventually it will be better than hoping our inbuilt dpiano speakers can be re-purposed or used for other sounds.. it's possible that you could wire things up with a soldering iron - but that's something I'm OK without doing because I'm OK with monitors and prefer that now to be sure (as replacement for 'real piano' experience).

Youtube videos - that's great and wish you well with it - and might have changed advice first given

In that case, it's probably primarily important to set up a more standard kind of studio rather than cobble together a non-standard space taking project. Like everything, equipment goes a long way towards any result but there are no single perfect choices along that road.. and just a few speakers in front of us while we are at our dpiano might be awesome and nothing more needs doing.

Some good headphones with binaural output might be something to try if you haven't already - that way, you don't need to worry about new large speakers or changing your space for the experience you are after. I would say that is beyond adequate "suspension of disbelief" for me, yet there are trillions of other choices from there, a DAW, plugins, an audio interface, headphone amp etc.. or no extras - whatever works for you is the only truly correct answer - and again spend adequate time on finding your preferences.. time spent at music stores, online looking at equipment, reading reviews, hearing samples/demos etc. - it's not all wasted time as long as you keep some time for your piano too

If you're happy now with your current near-fields (for recording/mixing) but want better 'real piano sound in the room' also, maybe keep an eye out for large pre-loved stereo speakers for sale (sometimes old speakers in a used home stereo decades old = extreme bargain).. maybe if you place those down on the floor your Youtube audience won't even notice your studio has extra speakers unless you want them to know of your decision to apply them.

Jesús wrote:

A pity, I was hopping for a sort of "magical solution" but its has not happened despite its Xmas - at least you guys tried to help, thanks very much

Regarding a magical solution - No mistake - Larger speakers can help with the feeling of the extraordinary forces from a real piano, shake your innards and the room of course.

You may not need 15inch Tannoy Gold speakers in solid hardwood cabinets or KEFs.. but hoping you have joy from the journey - That's the best I can wish for us all this Xmas

I think many of us have been there, trying so hard to adjust PTeq to our puny piano speakers.  I say puny, because, to me, the tone of PTeq is boardy, woody but still has a lot of pure sine wave type sound, particularly in the middle - upper register.
These cause things to rattle in sympathy, and I'd suggest the piano manufacturers have ironed out so much of the offending frequencies in their samples, to avoid all this.
But external monitors seem able to handle it.
Just don't stand them on the piano!

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Not getting rich sound through my own piano speakers

Thanks Peters

It took me sometime to diggest your whole post, just because my english its not as good as could look like my reading me

I think I understood it for the most part and didnt wanted to let the opportunity passed by without thanking you for such an elaborate post