Topic by aWc

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  • aWc
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Topic: hammer hardness parameter

It recently struck me (!) that the way "hammer hardness" is implemented, i.e. with 3 different settings for three velocity ranges, is quite useful but brings up questions about why they had to do it that way. Obviously, in a physical piano, hammer hardness only changes over a long period of time  with wear and tear. Maybe this is just necessary to accommodate a large variety of keyboard controllers used with PT? Or is it that, at this stage, the Pianoteq models cannot render a continuous and realistic increase in brightness with a single "hammer hardness" value for all velocities?
Curious about what other users think!

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

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Reply by NathanShirley

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  • NathanShirley
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Re: hammer hardness parameter

Hammer manufacturers produce hammers which have a considerable variety of "darkness/brightness" over the dynamic range. In effect it's like having various hardnesses depending on the dynamic being played. For example, some piano hammers are very bright when playing 'ff', but also somewhat bright at 'pp'. Other hammers are fairly dark at pp, and even somewhat dark at ff. Many are a bit dark at pp, and a bit bright at ff. Others cover a very wide spectrum, very dark at pp, and quite bright at ff. So having sliders for three dynamic ranges allows you to dial in the amount and quality of timbre change over the dynamic range, to replicate the real variety you find with actual piano hammers.

Hopefully that gets at what you were thinking about.

~ Nathan Shirley

https://www.NathanShirley.com

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Reply by aWc

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Re: hammer hardness parameter

interesting. I never thought of it that way. So, in effect, these sliders model real hammer behaviour. Great answer, thanks!

NathanShirley wrote:

Hammer manufacturers produce hammers which have a considerable variety of "darkness/brightness" over the dynamic range. In effect it's like having various hardnesses depending on the dynamic being played. For example, some piano hammers are very bright when playing 'ff', but also somewhat bright at 'pp'. Other hammers are fairly dark at pp, and even somewhat dark at ff. Many are a bit dark at pp, and a bit bright at ff. Others cover a very wide spectrum, very dark at pp, and quite bright at ff. So having sliders for three dynamic ranges allows you to dial in the amount and quality of timbre change over the dynamic range, to replicate the real variety you find with actual piano hammers.

Hopefully that gets at what you were thinking about.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

aWc's Website

Reply by MartinK

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Re: hammer hardness parameter

aWc wrote:

Obviously, in a physical piano, hammer hardness only changes over a long period of time  with wear and tear. Maybe this is just necessary to accommodate a large variety of keyboard controllers used with PT? Or is it that, at this stage, the Pianoteq models cannot render a continuous and realistic increase in brightness with a single "hammer hardness" value for all velocities?

Interesting question, and I asked myself the same question, too (the thread is old, I know, but still, the question remains ...). I think the really helpful answer by NathanShirley deserves to be made still more precise. It's maybe not so much the hammers having just any different hardnesses at different speeds, but there seems to be a "rule of thumb" of hammers generally getting harder with more speed (at impact with the string). At least that's what this article says, and it seems logical. It's called "dynamic hardness".

Thus, I think one can imagine the PTQ parameters like this: "hammer hardness at low / middle / high speed" (of the hammer meeting the string). PTQ's terminology "Hammer Hardness piano / mezzo / forte" seems a bit misleading for me, too.

Here's a quote from the article linked below, first on static (general) hammer hardness, then on dynamic hammer hardness:

The hardness of a piano hammer has a great deal of influence on the resulting piano sound. Hard hammers are better at exciting high frequency modes of a piano string's vibration so that the resulting tone quality may be characterized as being bright, tinny, or harsh. Soft hammers, on the other hand, do not excite high frequencies very well, and the resulting tone is somewhat dull or dark. The static hardness of a piano hammer may be tested by a durometer or hardness tester. In a typical piano, treble hammers are much harder than bass hammers.

Static hardness is not the only factor in determining piano tone. Dynamic hardness also plays an important role. A piano hammer behaves somewhat as a hardening spring; for large impact forces the hammer felt appears harder than it does for low impact forces. In the piano this means that a loud note sounds much brighter (i.e. contains more high frequencies) than a quiet note. It is difficult to test the dynamic hardness of hammers except by listening to them in a finished piano. If the piano tone is not as desired then the hammer hardness must be adjusted by voicing.

https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Piano/...ammer.html

Last edited by MartinK (12-05-2020 16:40)

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: hammer hardness parameter

MartinK wrote:

It's maybe not so much the hammers having just any different hardnesses at different speeds, but there seems to be a "rule of thumb" of hammers generally getting harder with more speed (at impact with the string). At least that's what this article says, and it seems logical. It's called "dynamic hardness".

In  Pianoteq PRO, I commonly slightly (and gradually) raise the hardnesses of all three hammer hardness parameters in the C-C or G-G four octave region known as the "grand staff", and then randomize them slightly, to mimic the natural wear on real pianos as they age.  As a professional piano tuner who inspects hammer condition of the pianos I tune, I have noticed that some pianos' hammers have grooves from years/decades of heavy play throughout the keyboard, while other pianos have this middle four octave characteristic.  In addition, I usually follow the same game plan with damper decay time, because dampers seem to become less effective as the years/decades go by. *** EDIT: *** Ironically, the C#s and F#s are usually still more deeply worn than those of the other black notes.  Or is it my imagination?  *** END  EDIT ***

Still, I prefer to "age" my own PianoteqPRO pianos according to the grand staff getting more wear, because part of routine piano maintenance includes reshaping and needling most to all of the 88 hammers.  Unless going for a special effect on a particular PTQ model for a particular piece (Debussy's Claire de Lune for instance), I usually do not reduce the hardnesses of any of Pianoteq's sliders.

My rule of thumb for the degree of hardness increase or damper decay increase, is this:  If the effect is obviously heard, then the amount of change was too drastic -- back off.  Here, I am going for the "feel" of the instrument's playability rather than a major change in timbre or brightness.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (12-05-2020 21:47)