Topic by Jake Johnson

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Topic: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

I have not really paid attention to this slider until I noticed it, sitting to the right of the Reverb area. Hovering over it with a mouse, I see that it reduces or increases the gain post effects. Fine and well, but:

1. Visually, it seems connected to the Reverb section instead of to the Effects page in general. I can imagine many people not even noticing it while working with the compressor and adding gain within the compressor, even though this overall post-effects gain is still affecting the sound. In other words, there is an almost hidden step in the gain staging. By default it seems to be set to +1 decibel. Not much, and there probably isn't much difference between adding gain in the compressor and adding it outside of the compressor, but I do worry that it just isn't clearly there, given the layout of the page.

2. This Gain slider has an effect even when no effects are loaded. Empty the Effects slots and turn off the Reverb. Then reduce the gain using this Gain slider. Now go back to the main interface. The gain is still low. In other words, the overall gain for the entire sound is, to me, again, hidden, on the bottom right of the Effects page. It's a post-effects gain, so it makes sense, in a way, that it is on the Effects page, but shouldn't it be on the main interface, perhaps to the right of the Effects button, so that it's always visible and not forgotten? Currently, since it's always on, there is 1 decibel added to the sound at all times by default, yes? Ot at least, the default Home presets seems to have it set to +1 on the pianos I've loaded. Other presets have different settings. Again, few of us would notice the difference in a single decibel, but...

3. Do we need a Volume slider AND a post-effects Gain slider? Do they do the same thing? (Is another gain stage being added when it's not needed? Using perhaps some processor resources, even if it doesn't color the sound? Or is the Volume slider pre-effects only? I remember something about this from long ago, so I may just be getting confused over something that I should already understand. Still, a label such as "Pre-effects Output" might be clearer for new users, instead of "Volume.")

Small thing, perhaps. Just worried me that I haven't understood, or really clearly seen, this slider before, and thus I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that others may not see or understand it.

(EDIT: Now I want to test a few notes using the Volume slide and this post-efffect Gain slider to see if they produce exactly the same set of freqs are the same amplitudes, or if any distortion is added with the post effects slider.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (29-11-2018 18:11)

Reply by Gilles

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

This note in the documentation says it all:

"The Gain is applied after all effects. Placed here for convenience, it does the same as the Volume in the main interface."

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

(Hand covers face.) One would think that I would have read the documentation.

Still, I think that this post-effects gain slider could be more plainly visible on the main interface page. A quibble, perhaps?

(EDIT: Or it may not be needed, since it does the same thing as the Volume slider, but its effect is not visible from the main page--one could lower the final gain stage, but not see this change on the main page.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (29-11-2018 19:23)

Reply by Qexl

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

I think it's one of the most elegant recent features for any of us tweaking esp with mics.

I know it might not seem worthy at first but here's where it shines IMO:

Go make a nice mic array in the mic tools - set all the mic volumes are just as you like..

I think you're maybe guessing what's next

In the effects section, you might add a new compression setting or flanger or amp - and then your sound could be too loud.

The gain slider right here is the perfect tool to get the 'final' volume perfect. No need to go back and alter every mic a bit higher left/right and change other aspects of other tools - just get it sounding "right" then set the final volume with the gain slider.

You'll be able to notice that if your mics are set way to loud or soft, this affects them - look to their graphs to see if they're clipping or way too low - the gain slider can fix it that way around too

[edit to add]: Also for those sharing FXPs of their own presets, it's nice to hand over a file which loads with a normal main volume - any offsets are theoretically accounted by the gain slider.

Last edited by Qexl (30-11-2018 02:24)
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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

Oh, I understand the need for a Gain or Output volume slider. My worry was just that it seemed hidden, and that even on the Effects page, it appears to be a part of the Reverb instead of the last gain stage  in the effects chain. An interface quibble, I have. Not a feature worry.

Reply by Qexl

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

To me, it's looks and acts like a track volume slider in a mixing desk/DAW. But it does occur, not all piano players might have the same recognition value attached to the upright slider!

[edit to add] - but I get what you mean - it does look like part of reverb only, despite a mouse over popup info. Maybe a different background colour for its background and stronger line between it and reverb controls?

Maybe if we could also see the main output level here (or just a clipping light maybe)?

I think of it as the volume you 'play with' when editing a preset until you've balanced your instrument and any effects you've chained in, and are only then ready to mix or master or god forbid touch the master volume slider which in my case is rare.

Works for me to think of it that way because I wouldn't want it on the main interface because it makes sense to have it in the effects area to save having to un-dock windows or jump between main interface and effects interface to make these tiny changes at the same time as making tiny changes to effects.

Last edited by Qexl (01-12-2018 05:47)
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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

Qexl wrote:

To me, it's looks and acts like a track volume slider in a mixing desk/DAW. But it does occur, not all piano players might have the same recognition value attached to the upright slider!

[edit to add] - but I get what you mean - it does look like part of reverb only, despite a mouse over popup info. Maybe a different background colour for its background and stronger line between it and reverb controls?

Maybe if we could also see the main output level here (or just a clipping light maybe)?

I think of it as the volume you 'play with' when editing a preset until you've balanced your instrument and any effects you've chained in, and are only then ready to mix or master or god forbid touch the master volume slider which in my case is rare.

Works for me to think of it that way because I wouldn't want it on the main interface because it makes sense to have it in the effects area to save having to un-dock windows or jump between main interface and effects interface to make these tiny changes at the same time as making tiny changes to effects.


Not to dwell on this too long, but:

The more I use and think about other audio programs, the more strange having duplicate Gain sliders, with different names and different controls (a horizontal and a vertical slider) seems. But a simple fix comes to mind:  Put this and the Dynamics slider on a narrow vertical bar at the far right of the interface, a bar that doesn't change as the user changes pages. (Now, as horizontal sliders, they take up a lot of space, too.) This ever-present bar would thus be present for other pages where setting the overall gain is needed, such as on the Mics page. This would eliminate having to duplicate the slider on different pages, freeing up space on each of those pages, and it would allow the interface to visually reflect the gain stage sequence, reading the interface left to right.

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: An interface worry: The Gain slider on the Effects page

Gilles wrote:

This note in the documentation says it all:

"The Gain is applied after all effects. Placed here for convenience, it does the same as the Volume in the main interface."

Actually, no, it doesn't do the same thing (the popup of the slider doesn't mention "it does the same..." part). It's an additional gain stage before the master volume. It's not the same slider as the volume on the main page. When you right-click the Gain slider, it clearly says Post-Effects Gain. It doesn't say Volume, like it does on the main page. Plus, they can be set to different values (obviously, since they're not the one and same parameter).

Last edited by EvilDragon (02-12-2018 22:09)
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