Topic by Andreas

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Topic: Advice on hardware appreciated...

Hello Pianoteq aficionados,
I am a new user and would appreciate some advice on which hardware to get.

I would like to play Pianoteq in real time, replacing the internal sound engine of my Casio AP-460. I've set up a test rig connecting USB-MIDI to my 2012 MacBook Pro and USB out from the Mac to the USB-DAC of my Marantz 7005 stereo amplifier connected to home stereo speakers.
While the Casio is pretty good for a €1000 piano, the Pianoteq sound blows me away. I like it much better than any high-end home pianos like Roland LX-17, Kawai CS-11 etc (I would only prefer the Yamaha NU1X because of the better keyboard feel). With Audio buffer set to 128 I have latency that I can notice when running internal and external sound together, but the latency is so small that I don't mind it while playing.

Now comes the hardware question: I would like to build a permanent rig with dedicated computer, DAC/sound processor, amp and speakers. I would not mind fitting it inside the Casio if possible, but it is also ok to have it placed next to the piano.
As there seem to be VERY many options, I would very much appreciate your advice: dedicated build of Linux computer with soundcard? Mini Mac with USB sound interface? What type of amp? Powered speakers? Dedicated built-in speakers?

Budget is not the primary concern, as I have saved a lot of money by not buying the high-end home pianos. However, shelling out as much for a sound card as I have spent on the piano would feel strange ;-)

Thanks for your help
Andreas

Reply by Kramster1

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

Maybe a Mac with thunderbolt into a thunderbolt interface like a Clarette is a place to start... super fast. A couple Focal powered monitors ...

Last edited by Kramster1 (03-04-2018 13:34)
Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Reply by lo134

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

Hello Andreas,

It's really exciting trying to build a sound system for Pianoteq!

I would like to share a couple of thoughts...

1. Like you said, there are many options. I think your current set-up (from Mac Book to USB DAC of Marantz receiver to home stereo speakers) works well. The only things I would add there is depending on the quality of your home speakers, there may be room to upgrade. Some good choices include the Dynaudio bookshelves, KEF LS50 (what I currently use), Spendor, Harbeths...etc. Also, with respect to latency, you may want to check whether your drivers are optimized...etc. (I was going to suggest ASIO4ALL before realizing that you are using a MAC). Finally, you may want to try using the internal speakers of your Casio digital piano. Although the Casio internal speakers themselves are likely not to be of the best quality, it's positioning within the piano is pretty optimized for the piano playing experience, therefore it may work well and may at least be a reference point for you as you upgrade (but you may need an audio interface to connect to the Casio internal speakers, I think the Marantz receiver may also work if it has pre-outs).

2. If you were going to build a system that is different from your current setup, then again, there are many options:

Computer: I do not have much knowledge here, but Pianoteq seems to work well with all supported platforms (Mac, PC, Linux), so probably go with the OS you are most comfortable with and the fastest computer within your budget...

Audio interface: I use RME babyface pro and it is excellent. Excellent sound quality, un-noticable latency and rock solid reliability. There is nothing I wanted more for an audio interface. I suppose anything from RME is great, but the babyface pro is the most economical. I am sure other brands / models will work great as well.

Amp + speakers vs. Powered studio monitors: The choices are so vast that I don't think there are definitive answers here. Both types can work just as well, depending on the quality. As mentioned above, I currently use the KEF LS50 speakers, powered by a Lab Gruppen E4.2 amplifier and it is really great. The Lab Gruppen amp has auto on / off functionality and speaker protection circuitry so it is convenient and worry-free (I just go to the piano and play, and the amp and speakers will turn on. After idling for 20 minutes it will shut off by itself). But I am sure there are tons of choices that will work -- powered monitor brands to consider include Focal (as Kramster1 mentioned above), Dynaudio, Adam, Genelec, and speaker brands to consider include PMC, Dynaudio, Anthony Gallo, KEF, Spendor, Harbeth, PSB, Proac, Focal...too many to list. One thing about speakers, I have had multiple experiences where the speakers are not adequate for Pianoteq (it distorts when I am playing loud), this usually happens when the speakers are too small (woofers <5 inches?), so this maybe something to watch out for.

Finally, there is the issue of speaker placement to approximate that of a grand piano: Some of us (me included) find that having the speakers facing up (similar to a grand piano's sound projection) provides a realistic playing experience. I also find that if there is a way to "connect" the speakers and the piano (e.g., place them on the same table) then when you play you feel the vibrations of the speakers and that also may enhance the realism.

My two cents...

I wish you all the best!

Roger

Last edited by lo134 (03-04-2018 14:08)

Reply by marcos daniel

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

About the PC, I would choose Linux since it is free, you save paying the license of Windows. (Mac is always more expensive given a processor). Most laptops have good internal sound chips.
I was able to run Pianoteq 5 on two modest laptops (one with a Turion m500 processor and another with a Pentium 2020m). I can't say if Pianoteq 6 would run properly on those setups since I don't have these computers anymore.
Another option is a Intel NUC (or another cheaper more generic mini PC), there you don't buy a screen perhaps you won't use.
The Intel 8th generation looks very promising, at least on paper.

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

NUC is pretty cool. Or Compute sticks. Especially since they can also come with a Windows license.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Andreas

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

Thanks for all your helpful suggestions, which I am busy researching right now.

I like the idea of starting the chain of components with a Linux PC or NUC, as they are small and have plenty of processing power. As I don't need desktop functions other than the Pianoteq interface, there is no point spending extra money on a Mac.

But what should be the next step in signal processing from computation to pre-amp? Are on-board chips sufficient (latency)? PCI(e) card? External USB or Thunderbolt interface?

I like the idea of adding a PCIe soundcard to the motherboard, thus using the fastest bus available. I guess the highly recommended RME PCIe cards would be total overkill for my purpose. All I need is low latency AD conversion and preamp function. Any suggestions?

How about Stereo USB-DACs like Dragonfly etc? They are supposed to sound very good, but the home stereo crowd is not worried about latency. Does anyone have experience in this area?

Thanks again,
Andreas

Reply by Andreas

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

Hello again,
I just looked at a Intel i5 7th Gen NUC for €320. The CPU would be much more powerful than my 2012 Mac, which is doing fine.
Is there any experience with the on-board Intel HD audio chipset?
Thanks
Andreas

Reply by wolfrock

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

EvilDragon wrote:

NUC is pretty cool. Or Compute sticks. Especially since they can also come with a Windows license.

I've used both a Lenovo compute stick and a Kangaroo device (the Kangaroo was admittedly pretty cool), both of which were on sale at the Microsoft store in Canada, online for ~$130 during black friday sales in years past. They were a little underpowered but I suppose were impressive for their size. I think the Kangaroo used the intel x5-Z8500 and might be a good bet for Pianoteq. However, a basic test of playing 1080p/60fps from Youtube on Win10 and the dropped frames in both led me to return both stick computers.

For the money I would still use a used desktop PC ($100) and I have two i5-3570 USFF desktops set up this way. They're still overpowered, you can fix them (because they are just regular PCs) and they don't overheat because there's room for air circulation. 88-key keyboards are huge and you can put a small computer on the floor or mount to the cabinet without taking any additional space. Lots of ports for DACs, wireless keyboard / whatever. Even on these older desktops, they use Realtek which are fine using ASIO4ALL at 48 or 96kHz. No discernible latency (2.7ms) at least on the software end.

Reply by 56Blu

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

I run pianoteq 6.5.2 on an intel NUC, with 2.3 GHz i3 processor. Performance index is reported at 81 and no issues at all with polyphony...100 easy no problems.

At first I was using the audio output from the NUC.  It's pretty good, but I wanted something cleaner so got a Dragonfly black.  It definitely sounds better, but there's definitely a latency issue.  I have the Dragonfly configured as "no conversions", 48k, 64 samples (1.3ms).

To test the latency, I set LocalControl on my clavinova to ON so that keypress causes both PT and Clav to produce sound.  What's strange is that if I launch PT and carefully listen to a keypress in upper register, the produced sounds overlap in time such that I cannot really detect any latency from PT.  However, after about ten seconds of launching PT, the PT output from Dragonfly has a quite noticeable delay - I'm guessing it's something like 8-10ms.

No latency issues at all with the NUC onboard DAC.  I'm trying to convince myself that the Dragonfly latency is "OK" but playing with its latency is a bit weird.  I'm wondering if my ubuntu 18.04 LTS is properly configured for 'real time' operation.

Reply by Groove On

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

I still think a high-quality laptop/tablet with all solid state components is the way to go for an all-in-one dedicated setup. You can avoid the mess of extra cabling, monitors, keyboard, mouse etc. Plus it’s simple to bring to a gig or social event.

Mac or PC
Any current Mac will run Pianoteq just fine out of the box; and the sound from the headphone jack is indistinguishable from most consumer level audio interfaces. On the PC side most high-quality laptops will also run Pianoteq out of the box, but it’s important to double-check that the model doesn’t have issues with a low quality DAC or latency. Also you may need to install ASIO 4 All to get some features working.

I’m using two older low-powered MacBook Airs from 2013 @ 1.3 GHz and 2015 @ 1.6Ghz - they run Pianoteq just fine. Both are solid-state and boot to Pianoteq in 30 seconds. I can also easily hot-swap them if one goes down during a gig. In the house, I usually have one Air up and running so I can just sit down and play anytime.

For awhile I mainly used the headphone outs, but when I added 2x QSC K8.2 speakers, I also bought a Mackie USB-MDB interface for the XLR outs to the speakers. The difference between the internal Mac DAC and the audio interface is barely perceptible on the QSC speakers. I can hear it mainly in the bass - but otherwise most people wouldn’t really hear much of a difference.

Reply by 56Blu

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Re: Advice on hardware appreciated...

More on latency issue using DragonFly black v1.5 on my NUC, i3 @ 2.3GHz performance index 81....

I installed ubuntu kernel "4.15.0-55-lowlatency" (per uname) and no improvement noted.  To better estimate the latency using the DragonFly, I went back to the onboard D/A and then adjusted the buffer size to produce a latency similar to that of the DragonFly.  That would be about 25 ms latency.

I then installed pianoteq trial on a win10 laptop and get similar latency using DragonFly on win10.

Has anyone gotten a DragonFly to work well with Pianoteq?  Am I missing something?