Microphone choice for analog piano and Pianoteq recordings?

Recording is both a science and an art, and recording an acoustic piano can be difficult. I'm not really qualified to give you an expert answer, but before I tried to record things the first time I searched the internet and found extensive articles and tutorials by people who really do have expertise.

It also depends a good deal on the equipment you already have and the budget you would be willing to spend. A conventional answer might be to look at a pair of matched condenser microphones that fit your price range, and record Pianoteq direct rather than amplified. For a very different approach, you could try a cheap boundary or PZM mic, recorded either under the lid of the piano or on the floor underneath.

This was the first hit when I searched recording an acoustic piano with a boundary mic:
https://recording.org/threads/good-micr...get.54170/

I'd consider a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics or one of the inexpensive boundary mics, but there are many, many ways to do what you want to do. Give yourself a few hours of research on the web, and you'll see some approaches frequently mentioned, as well as have a lot more understanding of the process.

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, I had not understood the difference between the condenser and diaphragm microphone pick up characteristics. This morning I have been listening to various microphone reviews by a guy who calls his website Podcastage - he appears to do a pretty decent job with showing directionality, distance from the microphones, etc. Since what I am trying to do is to record both from the speakers on both sides of my piano, as well as compare that to from the piano itself, I will likely go with one condenser microphone and run it through my Steinberg UR 22 Mark II, possibly putting it at the level of my head, or similar, as that will best simulate what my ears pick up. I may end up buying a multi-pattern microphone such as the Behringer C-3 or AT2050 so that I can learn what the different patterns do in real life, which may also teach me something also about how to use the microphones in Pianoteq.

Thanks for your advice.  I also have two ears.  Currently I am trying to compare my upright acoustic with my virtual piano, whose speakers flank the real acoustic piano.  I ordered a multi-mic, and, if I like it, may buy a second.  I appreciate that you have done this for decades - for me this is currently a fascinating hobby, so I will start with "one ear" (especially after incorrectly buying a diaphragm mic first - better for me that I only purchased one of those then).

I don't want to discourage such an interesting endeavour, but I'm a little puzzled.. Isn't the "proper" comparison one between a digital rendering of the analog-recorded acoustic piano and a digital recording (just writing the output to disk, no mics) of Pianoteq? (Or between an analog recording of Pianoteq versus playing back a *recording* of the acoustic piano through the same speakers )

Just trying  to level the playing field!

About the Line Audio CM3: I have a pair of those mics and yes they are a bargain. Great quality, including for piano recording, and very low price. Just be careful that they really need a shock mount system of some kind or they will pick any unwanted noise like pedals. Also, their directivity is not simply "cardio" but "wide cardio" - but this can be an added value, noticeably if placed close to the piano.
And, yes, you still need two of them if you want any chance to achieve a recording any close to a real piano in its true dimension...
Yeah, I know I insist. :-)

dklein - thanks for the explanation. I use speakers (unless it's late at night.)  I can absolutely sympathise with your obsession - Pianoteq's software modeling of acoustic sounds is fascinating to me! - and your procedure makes perfect sense in that light, though I fear maybe you'll have to resort to a large, wooden, piano-shaped speaker before you realise your ultimate goal!

Hey, guys, I am in the US - While I can get the P420 easily, the Line Audio CM3 has to be ordered via eBay or similar through a transcontinental agent via France or Belgium - Any suggestions as to which is best for piano recording a couple of feet from the piano?

Thanks. 

I think that the cable actually was my problem.  When I couldn't record with the new AT2050, I was using an XLR at the mic to 1/4" phono at the Steinberg UR22 mkII.  I swapped for an XLR to XLR cable, and I could then record.  So I went back to the Shure 58A, which now also works much better than it did (though it's not as good as the AT2050, which themselves aren't great. 

I was able to record my acoustic piano, but I have yet figured out if I can use the Steinberg both to output to monitor speakers as well as to record what Pianoteq sounds like through the monitor speakers.  I don't know whether that will work by not running the MIDI through Cubase, or perhaps through ASIO4ALL separate from the recording microphone.  I keep getting feedback as the monitor speakers are playing monitor output along with Pianoteq, when what I want is to run the monitor function to my headphones but Pianoteq to the speakers.  If I get it to work, then I can compare acoustic to Pianoteq.

Does this take two external soundcards/audio interfaces (UR22 mkIIs)?  One for production acoustic output and one for input?  Understand that I already can record Pianoteq as synthesis from MIDI, and even mix that with acoustic piano, but that's not what I'm trying to do, as I am trying to record Pianoteq as if it were an acoustic piano.

Thanks for the P420 tips.

You have to perform some routing in Cubase, but it's perfectly possible to get PIanoteq only, without monitoring the mic(s). Don't use ASIO4all: it's designed for internal soundcards that have no ASIO capabilities, but your Steinberg UR22, coming from the inventors of ASIO, is certainly capable of it!
Maybe you should check if you have the tatest driver here:
https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/do...river.html

I'm suprised by your comment on the AT2050, it's a really good mic, the P420 will probably not be better... and if I were you, I would certainly buy a second one, instead of a P420 to achieve a stereo setup. Look at the position of your mic(s): just a few inches makes a huge difference.

OK!  A start in the recording and comparison business... I received my 2 AKG P420s from Amazon today (thanks for the suggestion, Luc) and they are more pleasing and slightly warmer than the AT2050.  Plus, this time, since you pointed out that I have 2 ears, I bought two microphones [ :-) ].

Here are uncompressed (well, compressed as MP3s but not with audio compression in Cubase), non-equalized, first analog recordings.  The first is of a nervous me playing a Beethoven-like bit mated to Coffee Shop Boogie.  First you hear the real piano (1885 Steinway F), and then Pianoteq (with a modified Steinway B Improv preset that could use more tweaking).  The second is the same set-up, this time versus the Grotrian Intimate in a Player configuration (I think that I mistakenly called it "Grotrian Improv" in my audio recording).  The third is a brief improvisation in A-minor using just the Grotrian Intimate as Player preset - and it features my old piano's really noisy sustain pedal, which I can't seem to quiet - yes, it's almost this loud in real life as well.  The audio speakers are Emotiva Stealth 8's and Airmotiv 4's, along with their Bas-X 8" subwoofer.  Also, when I say "turn off the Steinway", what I really mean is that I am engaging the rubber-and-aluminum Stop-Rail so that the hammers on the piano don't contact the strings.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ort-of.mp3
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...-Blues.mp3
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...-minor.mp3

The microphones are both set as cardioid, to either side of me, and facing the middle of the piano, but higher than my head.  Here is a photo showing the set-up in my living room:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HVdn0WrgJ1kqpwGq2

It's a start, and now I'm getting a flavor of how black an art recording is (I'm not referring to the piano or the gear - just the magic that I am yet to learn).  Other than the piano playing, which needs the most work, I need to play with equalization to kill some of the bass and increase the treble a bit, try different microphone positions (the microphones higher than my head hear the upwards-facing Stealth 8's differently than my ears do), and try to use presets that are as close as possible to my piano by my ears using "Player" position.  Also, what I really should do is first record a MIDI file on my acoustic piano via the QRS PNOscan MIDI bar while the Stop Rail is disengaged, and then play that MIDI file through the Pianoteq VSTs in Cubase.

Anyway, it's a start...

Yes, Gilles, the floor mic situation sounds bad!

For my piano, the best type of sustain is the technique of "finger pedaling", as I learned on a Pianist Magazine video.

I have tried both glue and wood screws to tighten up the bittom of my piano's cabinet. But it's likely an ancient rebuild with non-original wood and mechanism (even before I replaced some deteriorating parts with new ones of red oak).

Gilles, maybe I should go to my nearest Cabane A Sucre for a few liters of L'eau Erable - do you think soaking the lower workings in that may help?  But then it might attract too many ants!

But then I need the snow, right?  I don't think it'll last in Florida (but it made for a nice dessert after a big dinner!).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/OB5pWOIWZBpfxePm2

Sorry but you're sure to get phase issues if you place your mics this way. Have a look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique

Phase issues ! Really !
A correct ORTF pair recording will give you the feeling that the piano is sitting exactly between your speakers, in a well defined place, whereas an "out of phase" recording will not let you "see" where the instrument might be !