Topic by AlexClarke

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  • AlexClarke
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Topic: Grotrain recording 3 - A4 note issue?

Hey

First of all, I've been checking out the trial version of pianoteq, and I am hugely impressed, and saving up some pennies from my next paydays to get the real deal!

My issue at the moment, is with the A4 note on the Grotrain recording 3 - i'm not sure it is what one would call a 'bug', but it definitely stands out. The A4 note is louder than the surrounding notes at medium velocities, and the A4 resonates (sounds very piercing) so much more in your ear than surrounding notes. Spectrogram confirms the fundamental is much higher. There is the same issue on G4 but less so. Black keys are fine, and F4/B4 sound fine. At high/low velocities the effect is much less, only really stands out a medium velocities. Checked this with a spectrogram also. My velocity curve is linear by default. Also, compared it to Grotrain rec 1 and 2, and other Grotrain's, which don't have the same issue at all - A4 sounds great on those.

I mean, maybe this is just the way Grotrain recording 3 is meant to be? Weird that the set up affects one note so much though? Especially compared to similar Grotrain set-ups. Since only one note stands out like that makes me think this issue will annoy other people, who may want to subdue the A4. In any case, I simply LOVE grotrain rec 3, so I want to fix the G4 and A4. My initial fix involved having the A4 at a quarter of  the velocity that it was at originally, but you loose overtones this way... Ideally I think i just want to reduce the volume of that note? I don't think I can change the note-by-note edit in the trail version? - so anyone with a real version - could you check it out for me and see what you think is best way to get the A4 note more in line with surrounding notes? In note-by-note edit is there a way to lower the volume of *only* the fundamental? Leaving the harmonics at the same loudness? This would be the ideal fix to get the A4 sounding perfect to my ear! Expert users, is such an edit possible?

Thanks in advance for any advice on my weird question...
Cheers
Alex

Reply by kalessin

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Re: Grotrain recording 3 - A4 note issue?

Hm. I don't notice anything odd in that preset. Which pitch notation do you use: European (middle C is C3), American (middle C is C4) or MIDI (middle C is C5)? Anyhow, I think you have probably come across a resonance effect, which is actually something real instruments show. I.e., the timbre/loudness of adjacent notes can be surprisingly different, and the timbre changes in a nonlinear fashion with velocity too. Which is why good sampled instruments sample every single key at a multitude of differing velocities.

All that said, the main differences between Grotrian Recording 2 and 3 seem to be the high-frequency cutoff and impedance settings (in the "Design" section), apart from the microphone positions. You could try to select the Recording 3 preset, then set both values to 1.00 and see what happens (both values are set to 1.00 in the Recording 2 preset).

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by marcos daniel

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Re: Grotrain recording 3 - A4 note issue?

I've just tested every A and they sound OK for that preset...
EDIT: compared with neighbour notes

Last edited by marcos daniel (15-02-2018 20:51)

Reply by AlexClarke

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Re: Grotrain recording 3 - A4 note issue?

I'm in Ableton so middle C is C3. The A4 I'm on about has a fundamental at ~873 Hz. Thanks for your take on it. Lowering the impedance helps but the effect is still there relative to surrounding notes with lower impedance. For me it's way obvious! Wav file here with a sample note: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xU2k6q...sp=sharing

In any case, you are probably right about the resonance effect just being part of the instrument. In a way i'm fascinated how this came about in the modelling of the instrument, which is why i'm trying to hard to hunt down the parameters responsible! It's odd that it's only on rec 3... oh well!

Reply by AlexClarke

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Re: Grotrain recording 3 - A4 note issue?

ohhhhhhh as soon as I posted that I was thinking, it couldn't be mic placement could it? It's not that insanely well modeled? OH MY DAYS it IS mic placement. 873 hz is around 40cm, so if two mics are 40cm behind each other you'll get that A4 ringing out in the recording loads, naturally. I am blown away that this software can reproduce such effects so accurately. I moved mics 3 and 4 back a few cm, and hey presto, the resonance decreases on the A4! Totally explains why it wasn't audible on the other Grotrain versions.

Grab a spectrum and check it out yourself, moving those mics back/forward a tad and I reduced the A4 peak by around 3-4db, resonance goes away, beautifully smooth across all frequencies now! I could play with the mic delays a bit also probably to improve this further, make sure other notes aren't affected.

Love this software. Love it.

Cheers
Alex