Topic: Physical modelling drums?

I'm a Pianoteq user since V3 and absolutely love and appreciate the great work!
I'm also a big fan of physical modelling since it gives you a great deal of flexibility, adjustability and adds that extra bit of liveliness to the sound compared to sampling instruments.

Knowing that Pianoteq is modelling the piano and other percussive instruments in such a realistic way, I was wondering how far off it would be to model a drum set.
I've been looking out for a physical model of a drum kit since I got in touch with physical modelling about 10 years ago.
I'm a bit frustrated with how limited sampled drum plugins are in terms of rooms/mic positioning and tuning.
It would be fantastic to build and customise a virtual drum kit in a plugin! And there surely would be a great market for it.

I'm aware of some other companies that built plugins with physical modelling drum sounds.
But so far it all seems to be more on a experimental side without the intention to model a typical drum set as realistic as possible.

Are there any plans to work on a "drumteq" plugin?
I would appreciate to hear some thoughts about it!

Re: Physical modelling drums?

It's a good idea, for the contest 2013 I use only Pianoteq to create a little drums so it's possible for Modartt (click on the link for go to the entry of drum)

  https://youtu.be/xnB9-eLq0Pw?t=37s

Last edited by Lylo (13-09-2017 11:57)

Re: Physical modelling drums?

jacou wrote:

Are there any plans to work on a "drumteq" plugin?
I would appreciate to hear some thoughts about it!

Imagine,
Some percussions, 2 organs (1 classical and one B3 type), 1 synth...
A substitute for Kontakt

Re: Physical modelling drums?

Lylo wrote:

It's a good idea, for the contest 2013 I use only Pianoteq to create a little drums so it's possible for Modartt (click on the link for go to the entry of drum)

  https://youtu.be/xnB9-eLq0Pw?t=37s

That's quite impressive! Thank you for sharing!

Last edited by jacou (13-09-2017 18:41)

Re: Physical modelling drums?

Thank you jacou. As you can see bass drum is realised with add-on Steelpan, Hi-hat with a harpsichord and snare with Clavinet D6. So I think Pianoteq ready for drums sounds.

Re: Physical modelling drums?

I would love to see a modeled drum program.  Currently I use BFD, but it is 1) a gigantic 50+ GBs of samples, and 2) Windows and Mac only (I use Pianoteq and Bitwig on Linux).  If I were able to get my drums run-able in Linux and with a lighter-weight implementation I would be ecstatic.  If it compared with the sound quality of BFD3 I would pay a few hundred bucks without hesitation.

Re: Physical modelling drums?

Modelled drum plugins do exist... Well I know at least one.

https://www.image-line.com/plugins/Synths/Drumaxx/

Hard work and guts!

Re: Physical modelling drums?

EvilDragon wrote:

Modelled drum plugins do exist... Well I know at least one.

https://www.image-line.com/plugins/Synths/Drumaxx/

Thanks for the link!  Alas, no Linux support.  Also, while the YouTube video's compression might not be doing the library any favors, the quality comparison between analog drum sounds and what BFD3 is capable of isn't close.

...but that's why I would _love_ Modartt to do it.  Pianoteq sounds waaaaay better to my ears (or at least on par for those who might argue) than the myriad other sample-based pianos libraries I've used.

Last edited by dehuszar (13-07-2018 01:15)

Re: Physical modelling drums?

I haven't used it, but there's this:

https://www.applied-acoustics.com/chromaphone-2/

I don't think it's available for Linux however (PC/Mac).

Re: Physical modelling drums?

I'll just add one thing: I would love to see Modartt further refine their pitched percussion and expand into unpitched percussion (and really every other instrument under the sun). Their approach to instrument manipulation is far superior to any other software I've seen. Rather than taking it from a synthesis perspective -- adjusting voltages, oscillations, ADSR, etc. -- they instead take the perspective of an instrument builder. Adjusting string length, hammer hardness at various dynamics, instrument dynamic range, sympathetic string vibrations, strike point, etc., is all so much more intuitive for a musician.

So I'm excited to see how Organteq develops, and would love to see more -- unpitched percussion, bowed/plucked strings, brass, reeds, etc. I know some have argued that Modartt should stick to pianos, and sure, refining the pianos shouldn't be neglected, but I certainly don't see any neglect happening thus far. Expanding into other instruments could easily lead to further refinement of the piano models. The knowledge gained from modeling a cymbal being struck by a mallet might give further insight into how a felt covered hammer strikes a copper wound string. Modeling a reed vibrating might give further insight into how the soundboard in a piano vibrates. Modeling the sympathetic vibrations in a drum set might lead to subtle refinements to sympathetic vibrations resonating in a piano model. Everything's related.

Re: Physical modelling drums?

NathanShirley wrote:

I'll just add one thing: I would love to see Modartt further refine their pitched percussion and expand into unpitched percussion (and really every other instrument under the sun). Their approach to instrument manipulation is far superior to any other software I've seen. Rather than taking it from a synthesis perspective -- adjusting voltages, oscillations, ADSR, etc. -- they instead take the perspective of an instrument builder. Adjusting string length, hammer hardness at various dynamics, instrument dynamic range, sympathetic string vibrations, strike point, etc., is all so much more intuitive for a musician.

So I'm excited to see how Organteq develops, and would love to see more -- unpitched percussion, bowed/plucked strings, brass, reeds, etc. I know some have argued that Modartt should stick to pianos, and sure, refining the pianos shouldn't be neglected, but I certainly don't see any neglect happening thus far. Expanding into other instruments could easily lead to further refinement of the piano models. The knowledge gained from modeling a cymbal being struck by a mallet might give further insight into how a felt covered hammer strikes a copper wound string. Modeling a reed vibrating might give further insight into how the soundboard in a piano vibrates. Modeling the sympathetic vibrations in a drum set might lead to subtle refinements to sympathetic vibrations resonating in a piano model. Everything's related.

these are all great points and, though i of course don't know for certain, i'm fairly confident that the good folks at Modartt already keep a pretty broad "portfolio" of considerations in their on-going work with the modeling engine.

'would be curious to hear more from the devs about the sausage getting made with the engine et al (some sort of dev blog of sorts?), but i equally imagine that most of that sort of thing is intensely proprietary...

Matthieu 7:6

Re: Physical modelling drums?

Modartt are very wise to focus on doing just a few things exceptionally well, rather than dabble in lots of things. But, if and when they are ready to branch into other types of instruments, we can be sure that the results will be very special indeed!
(Of course, when I say 'just a few things', it's really a great deal, because the instruments are covered in such exquisite detail.)

Last edited by dazric (14-07-2018 11:48)

Re: Physical modelling drums?

U-he is working on a drum synth -- see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9f7tvz5MHA  Also, this is potentially good news for Linux users since U-he has so far ported their stuff to Linux.  But who knows if/when U-he will release their drum synth.

Re: Physical modelling drums?

That project is not being very actively worked on, from last I'm reading. They have many other things on their plate, first and foremost Zebra 3 and then updates of some of their older, a bit forgotten products. They are also seeking funding options for the drumsynth - as it turned out, it needs significant R&D efforts.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Physical modelling drums?

NathanShirley wrote:

I'll just add one thing: I would love to see Modartt further refine their pitched percussion and expand into unpitched percussion (and really every other instrument under the sun). Their approach to instrument manipulation is far superior to any other software I've seen. Rather than taking it from a synthesis perspective -- adjusting voltages, oscillations, ADSR, etc. -- they instead take the perspective of an instrument builder. Adjusting string length, hammer hardness at various dynamics, instrument dynamic range, sympathetic string vibrations, strike point, etc., is all so much more intuitive for a musician.

So I'm excited to see how Organteq develops, and would love to see more -- unpitched percussion, bowed/plucked strings, brass, reeds, etc. I know some have argued that Modartt should stick to pianos, and sure, refining the pianos shouldn't be neglected, but I certainly don't see any neglect happening thus far. Expanding into other instruments could easily lead to further refinement of the piano models. The knowledge gained from modeling a cymbal being struck by a mallet might give further insight into how a felt covered hammer strikes a copper wound string. Modeling a reed vibrating might give further insight into how the soundboard in a piano vibrates. Modeling the sympathetic vibrations in a drum set might lead to subtle refinements to sympathetic vibrations resonating in a piano model. Everything's related.

Spot on! Thank you for sharing this!
Couldn't agree more with the approach thing. That's where all the frustration comes from. So many soft synth developers out there that want to build software synthesisers with a wide range of possibilities that sometimes also dabble into physical instrument areas. But non of them with the same approach that pianoteq has! That's the reason I wanted to post my thoughts here rather than anywhere else.
It is a bit absurd to me to build synth and abstract instruments with a physical modelling engine while even the name physical modelling clearly implies it's intention.
We need people with a passion for real drums and high mathematic skills