Topic: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

On a real piano, I've noticed this behavior: On some sustained bass notes, the decay evolves with the fundamental slowly fading out but leaving a partial or partials slightly above it still ringing. Not sure how this can be. The higher pitched partials, created by faster moving portions of the string, should exhaust their energy sooner, but they don't seem to be doing that. Could it be perpendicular vibrations that are lasting longer? They are loud and sustain for a long time, if so.

Some things to note:

1. We of course do not hear this behavior in sampled instruments, for the low filter will cut the upper partials sooner than the low partials.
2. The piano in question is a 1905 Chickering model 116. Could the age or make have an influence?
3. I actually LIKE this sound. It makes the note seem to evolve in an interesting way. The hold-out partials are lower partials, so the sound is still fairly harmonious with the fundamental. In other words, a side of me wishes that we could reproduce this behavior in Pianoteq, even though it might be considered a flaw in the piano.

(I've posted this question, without the PT reference, on the PianoWorld Tech forum, too.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (02-07-2016 17:22)

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

Many of the higher frequencies produced by a piano's bass strings are not the result of the string itself, but instead are produced by the copper wire coil wrapped around the string (which is done to add weight to the string so that it can be tuned to a lower frequency without being too lax (loose) or without having to be too long (longer than is practical in a piano cabinet/frame). This is (at least one reason) why the harmonics and other higher frequencies are often heard to a greater extent than the fundamental tone of a bass piano string.

Perhaps a piano technician or tuner can add more technical information to this discussion.

--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

I'm hearing various theories from the PianoWorld techs and tuners. Old strings, or possibly the dampers are not fully lifted from the string, or the apparent fundamental, an auditory illusion created by lower formant partials, falls away as the mixture of partials subsides. Another writer says that he hears the same phenomenon on his piano, and he too likes the evolving sound.

Stephen, I have not heard or read anything before about the wrappings on bass strings having a different partial structure from that of the core string. Are there articles about this? I would like to follow up on the subject.

In any case, here is a link to the discussion on the PW site: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...ost2553661

Last edited by Jake Johnson (04-07-2016 04:58)

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

The decay  of each partial of each string (all notes, not only the bass notes) is a matter of soundboard impedance, which varies with the frequency fore each note. The resonance modes of the soundboard plus strings system are independent, each partial can have a more or less pronounced decay. It is common to have the fundamental decreasing faster than some of the higher partials, particularly in the bass range.

A fast decay is usually associated to a strong sound, because fast decay means rapid energy transfer to the soundboard, hence a louder sound. On the contrary, low decay means slow energy transfer and a less loud sound. The interesting thing that can happen and that you noticed is for example a fundamental with fast decay and say a third (or any other range) partial with slow decay. In such a case, the fundamental will be louder at the beginning of the note, but as it vanishes rapidly, the third overtone will slowly get more audible and at the end you won't hear the fundamental any more, only this third (or any other range) partial.

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

Thank you Philippe for that explanation.

--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

The decay  of each partial of each string (all notes, not only the bass notes) is a matter of soundboard impedance, which varies with the frequency fore each note. The resonance modes of the soundboard plus strings system are independent, each partial can have a more or less pronounced decay. It is common to have the fundamental decreasing faster than some of the higher partials, particularly in the bass range.

A fast decay is usually associated to a strong sound, because fast decay means rapid energy transfer to the soundboard, hence a louder sound. On the contrary, low decay means slow energy transfer and a less loud sound. The interesting thing that can happen and that you noticed is for example a fundamental with fast decay and say a third (or any other range) partial with slow decay. In such a case, the fundamental will be louder at the beginning of the note, but as it vanishes rapidly, the third overtone will slowly get more audible and at the end you won't hear the fundamental any more, only this third (or any other range) partial.


Would it be valuable to implement this phenomenon in the model? We can control the impedance and for that matter the amplitude of each partial, but the decay rate of partials is outside our reach. I'm not sure what changes would have to be made, either within the internal model or the part of the model that is accessible to users of the pro version. Tying the decay rate to the partial amplitude, so that increasing the amplitude of any partial automatically reduced its life? But that would be controlling the soundboard impedance through the partial structure, instead of controlling the evolving partial structure through the sound board impedance.

In any case, I hope I am not dwelling on a small aspect of the sound. It seems possible that this aspect of the sound might instead contribute to the "realistic" evolution of the decay. It may contribute to what many people hear as the life in a note. On the other hand, I can see that it might be complex to implement--how would it interact with the detuned unisons, with the current Impedance control, etc?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (04-07-2016 18:38)

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

Jake Johnson wrote:

Would it be valuable to implement this phenomenon in the model?

It is implemented, see section 8.1 and Tutorial 3 in the Pianoteq manual. You can hear it at work in all Pianoteq piano models.

We can control the impedance and for that matter the amplitude of each partial, but the decay rate of partials is outside our reach.

The impedance does not control the amplitude of the partials but their decay (same reference in the manual as above). When you change the value of the three soundboard parameters (impedance, cutoff and Q factor) in the Design panel of the Pianoteq interface, you are actually modifying the decay of the partials.

Note that the amplitude of the partials itself is controlled in another section: the Voicing panel.

I'm not sure what changes would have to be made, either within the internal model or the part of the model that is accessible to users of the pro version. Tying the decay rate to the partial amplitude, so that increasing the amplitude of any partial automatically reduced its life? But that would be controlling the soundboard impedance through the partial structure, instead of controlling the evolving partial structure through the sound board impedance.

In any case, I hope I am not dwelling on a small aspect of the sound. It seems possible that this aspect of the sound might instead contribute to the "realistic" evolution of the decay. It may contribute to what many people hear as the life in a note. On the other hand, I can see that it might be complex to implement--how would it interact with the detuned unisons, with the current Impedance control, etc?

It is indeed an important matter, that's why the soundboard model was implemented since version 1, and refined regularly.

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

My worry was that I was not hearing changes in the Impedance changing the decay of specific partials, or more specifically causing the fundamental to die before other partials. I'll have to go back and listen. I was thinking that the Impedance affected all of the partials equally, with the upper partials always dying away earlier.

Re: On bass notes, one or more partials above the 1st rings longer?

Jake Johnson wrote:

My worry was that I was not hearing changes in the Impedance changing the decay of specific partials, or more specifically causing the fundamental to die before other partials. I'll have to go back and listen. I was thinking that the Impedance affected all of the partials equally, with the upper partials always dying away earlier.

You are right, the impedance slider affects all of the partials equally, whereas the cutoff and Q factor affect more the higher partials. But nevertheless, the fact that some notes have shorter fundamentals than other partials is already implemented in the model. For example, if you listen to the C2 (C below middle C, MIDI #48) on the Grand D4, you will notice that the fundamental vanishes significantly faster than partial #3 which has quite a long sustain (because the soundboard impedance at this frequency, for this note, is rather high compared to the one associated to the fundamental). Another example, maybe more striking: listen to G1: partials 3, 4, 5, 6 last significantly longer than 1 (fundamental) and 2.