Topic by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff

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Topic: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Hello, Pianoteq developers!
I have the deepest admiration for You and for your work: Your realized something I didn't even know were possible, and if I'm not saving money for a piano I only owe this to You all.
When I bought the Stage version I was amazed by its playability and variety of instruments: when I discovered the KIVIR pack I realized Pianoteq was a lot better than what I expected. I play every instrument in Pianoteq (my keyboard's action is closer to a fortepiano-ish one than to the one of a piano, so I have no problem adapting to virtual historical instruments) and I'm satisfied by every single one, except by the harpsichords.
Their sound is perfect, but I am extremely annoyed by the fact that you can not play the two keyboards on the Blanchet, and I can't find a good reason to not implement the possibility of connecting two keyboards and playing the two registers that the original instrument has.
Apart from letting us use two keyboard, I have a feature to propose to: what I'm thinking about is a sort of soft pedal that, when pressed, lets you play the "piano" keyboard of the harpsichord and, when released, it changes back to the "forte" keyboard. I would LOVE this and it could help me a lot with the sinfonia of Bach's Partita no.2 (I would play the first part on the forte keyboard, the second on the piano keyboard and the third again on the forte keyboard).
Also: I noticed you can customize how effective the Una Corda pedal is, and it would be extremely nice to have a similar parameter for the Lute Stop: when using it on the Blanchet the timbre changes only subtly, and to me it feels like you're only playing staccato, the sound doesn't feel lute-like at all, so I would love being able to increase its effect.
Also: is there a way to comfortably switch from a register to another when playing the Grimaldi?
If there is, then let me know; if there is not, then make one!

Please, make Pianoteq completely playable for harpsichordist: I'd dare to say that it's a shame that the two wonderful harpsichord models are not playable in their entirety!


P.S. Binaural mode is amazing, and to me it completely changes the timbre of the Blanchet. I suggest trying it to everyone.
P.P.S. In a week or so I will buy the new Model B. I think it's the best Steinway I've ever listened to: not nasal at all, clear but not cold. Speaking with colours, I'd say it's "shining black" in the bass, dark limpid blue in the mids and white in the highs, and the attack is amazing: it feels like a raindrop, especially with increased hammer noise.
Since now I mainly played the 1922 Pleyel, but I think that the Model B will soon replace it (and I am not at all a fan of Steinway, so i never thought that this would have happened).
Thank you, really. You've changed my conception of "playing" with your software.
-Michelangelo

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (03-04-2016 21:13)

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Here's a quick workaround for you.

Notice the A/B button on the interface? By default it is set to "A". Load the harpsichord A manual there. Now switch to "B" and load harpsichord "B" manual there. You can assign a MIDI message to this A/B preset button and switch between them instantly with your MIDI controller.

The only thing you couldn't do with this is getting the coupled A+B sound. However you could do this within a plugin host or a DAW easily, even with just one MIDI controller - with two instances of Pianoteq loaded, one with manual A, one with manual B. Then you could assign two buttons on your controller to solo each track individually. This will get you all the combinations possible.

Last edited by EvilDragon (03-04-2016 21:41)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

EvilDragon wrote:

Here's a quick workaround for you.

Notice the A/B button on the interface? By default it is set to "A". Load the harpsichord A manual there. Now switch to "B" and load harpsichord "B" manual there. You can assign a MIDI message to this A/B preset button and switch between them instantly with your MIDI controller.

The only thing you couldn't do with this is getting the coupled A+B sound. However you could do this within a plugin host or a DAW easily, even with just one MIDI controller - with two instances of Pianoteq loaded, one with manual A, one with manual B. Then you could assign two buttons on your controller to solo each track individually. This will get you all the combinations possible.

Yes, I know this, but this does not work for the Blanchet (the two keyboards are not even separate presets!) and by using two instances of Pianoteq you don't get the sympathetic resonance and the reverb, because they are like two different instruments that do not interact in any way.
This is why I am directly asking the developers to make the harpsichord models playable in their entirety, because there is no way to use them properly without limitations.

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (04-04-2016 12:19)

Reply by Sundance_k1d

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

My setup does what youre aiming for I Believe.

I have a Roland fp5 digital piano, and on top of that a smaller m-audio oxygen.
Use any DAW of youre preference and just create two tracks with two separate pianoteq-plugins.

I do this all the time, especially with harpsichords but sometimes I also use the upper keyboard for playing Electric or upright bass and the lower keyboard for playing piano.

Reply by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Sundance_k1d wrote:

My setup does what youre aiming for I Believe.

I have a Roland fp5 digital piano, and on top of that a smaller m-audio oxygen.
Use any DAW of youre preference and just create two tracks with two separate pianoteq-plugins.

I do this all the time, especially with harpsichords but sometimes I also use the upper keyboard for playing Electric or upright bass and the lower keyboard for playing piano.


Pleas, read my previous answer to EvilDragon: I will not use two instances of Pianoteq because they do not resonate together and for other reasons

Reply by Wheat Williams

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

...and I'm satisfied by every single one, except by the harpsichords.
Their sound is perfect, but I am extremely annoyed by the fact that you can not play the two keyboards on the Blanchet...

Please, make Pianoteq completely playable for harpsichordist

Ask, and it shall be given.

13 April, 2016: Pianoteq Harpsichord Hans Ruckers II Instrument Pack released

Hans Ruckers II harpsichord for Pianoteq is a superb virtual instrument with authentic sound and response, and it is a joy to play. It is equipped with the three registers - lower 8', upper 8', and 4' - which can be combined in ways not even possible in the real world. Available for evaluation in the latest update 5.6 and as an instrument pack.

https://www.pianoteq.com/harpsichord

Pianoteq Harpsichord

Last edited by Wheat Williams (13-04-2016 16:46)
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Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Well, that's a splendid sounding harpsichord!!

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Wheat Williams

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

EvilDragon wrote:

Well, that's a splendid sounding harpsichord!!

Most importantly, you can use all three choirs or registers (lower 8', upper 8', 4') independently or simultaneously, coupled together in all possible combinations.

This directly addresses Lexiavor Bachmaninoff's complaint (which is something I have long thought about myself!)

In its authentic form it has the original instrument's 4 1/2 octave compass of notes, but there's a toggle button to switch between 4 1/2 octaves and a virtual 6 1/2 octave extension.

Last edited by Wheat Williams (13-04-2016 18:22)
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Reply by Chopin87

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Damn, yet another beautiful instrument I absolutely need to play some Scarlatti and Cimarosa's sonatas! I am officially addicted to Pianoteq.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Reply by scherbakov.al

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

This is some amazing tool ..

Reply by SteveLy

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

The new Hans Ruckers II reads and sounds fantastic. I'll probably have to buy it even though I'll only use it very occasionally.

The weakness of digital harpsichords is not in the sound but in the keyboard one uses to play them. There is no MIDI controller I know of that feels even remotely close to a real harpsichord. If you just want the sound that may not matter, but folks who'd use the accurately modelled instruments most are early music students and professionals. For them there is nothing I know of that fills the niche need for authentic feel. Fatar do some nice classical organ keyboards and some of those might be the best suited I'm told, but harpsichords still feel very different.

My spouse, who studied early music at tertiary level (though she's primarily a pianist) reckons that some of the modelled harpsichords sound very good but they are let down by the mechanics of keyboards that feel nothing like a harpsichord. If anyone knows of suitable MIDI controllers, I'd love to hear about them.

3/2 = 5

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Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

The Hans Ruckers II harpsichord sounds great.

It might be useful, for those who have two (or three) MIDI keyboard controllers stacked one on top of another, to be able to specify in Pianoteq that (for example) one of the manuals of the harpsichord be controlled by one of the MIDI keyboards (using MIDI channel 1, for example) and the second manual (2nd keyboard) of the harpsichord be controlled by the second MIDI keyboard, sending messages on MIDI channel 2. Then one could play their two or three stacked MIDI keyboards as though they were playing and switching between the various manuals of the harpsichord in real time.

Anyway, beautiful instrument. Couldn't resist purchasing it. And Nathan Shirley's improvisation sample at this harpsichord's webpage at PianoTeq.com is great. The other samples of music by Handel, Couperin (Mysterious Barricades is a favorite piece) and Rameau also demonstrate the Hans Ruckers II to great advantage.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (14-04-2016 17:42)
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Reply by sandalholme

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

I think the only way to have a controller that feels like an acoustic harpsichord is to build a harpsichord action, or something that reproduces the weight as the plectrum bends against the string followed by the sudden weightlessness as the string is plucked. An effect far more tangible and precise than the simulated let off for piano actions. Not impossible but a niche market.  Having said that, I owned - and have played many more, before and since - an acoustic harpsichord for more that 20 years and am absolutely delighted playing the Ruckers. A controller doesn't give the same feel as an acoustic grand or a church organ either, but it is good enough for me.

Re playing live, if each register/combination of registers is allocated to "spare" keys at the ends of the keyboard, register changes can be effected as quickly as with an acoustic harpsichord with hand levers.  All you are missing is the ability to play one manual with one hand and the other manual with the other hand, as in the Italian concerto, French Overture and the Goldbergs, for which 2 physical manuals are needed. "Run-on" links in the French baroque repertoire are also tricky and a second controller/manual would be useful.  However, look what we are getting for the price of a midi controller and the cost of Pianoteq + instruments.  As an acoustic performer of more than half a century it is nothing short of miraculous. And with Modartt's track record of product development it can only get better!

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Thank you, Sandalholme. I meant to write the word manual, not register. I'll edit my post. I was simply suggesting that if a person had two MIDI keyboards, each could be used to play a different harpsichord manual (keyboard) using different MIDI channels, if Pianoteq were to allow that configuration option.

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Reply by OrganoPleno

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

I was simply suggesting that if a person had two MIDI keyboards, each could be used to play a different harpsichord manual (keyboard) using different MIDI channels, if Pianoteq were to allow that configuration option.

You can do that easily inside a DAW host.  Just run two instances of Pianoteq, each one responding to a different MIDI keyboard, and each one implementing a different registration on the Harpsichord model.

Reply by OrganoPleno

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

SteveLy wrote:

Fatar do some nice classical organ keyboards and some of those might be the best suited I'm told, but harpsichords still feel very different.

That's what I use... a set of three keyboards from www.midiworks.ca manufactured by Fatar and using a "tracker touch" release.  To me, it does feel quite realistic for playing a harpsichord model.

Reply by SteveLy

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

sandalholme wrote:

A controller doesn't give the same feel as an acoustic grand or a church organ either, but it is good enough for me.

Good MIDI piano controllers are a lot closer to acoustic instruments, and most modern pipe organs actually use electronic controllers anyway (have done so for many years, often wirelessly) so they've been pretty well researched and executed. Digital Harpsichords & Clavichords are much more of a niche market.

OrganoPleno wrote:
SteveLy wrote:

Fatar do some nice classical organ keyboards and some of those might be the best suited I'm told, but harpsichords still feel very different.

That's what I use... a set of three keyboards from www.midiworks.ca manufactured by Fatar and using a "tracker touch" release.

Thanks! I'll check it out when I get the chance.

Last edited by SteveLy (15-04-2016 04:16)
3/2 = 5

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Reply by NathanShirley

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Glad you liked my improvisation Stephen -- this new Ruckers practically plays itself.

For those of you interested in seeing a demonstration of what this harpsichord model can do with two keyboards inside a DAW, I've got a video I'll share below. This is the 4th movement from my Suite for Harpsichord -- Reanimation. I just premiered it over the weekend on a beautiful French style harpsichord; actually not so different from the Ruckers.

I've got a very recent Kickstarter campaign going for a new album -- primarily original piano music (which will be recorded on an 1890's Knabe concert grand), but it will also include this Suite for Harpsichord and also a Suite for Synthesizer which was written specifically for three heavily-modified Pianoteq instruments. If you're interested, here's the Kickstarter link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10...ichord-and

Sorry about the shameless self-promotion!

https://youtu.be/kQ9uceuOn7M

~ Nathan Shirley

https://www.NathanShirley.com

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Reply by OrganoPleno

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

NathanShirley wrote:

Glad you liked my improvisation Stephen -- this new Ruckers practically plays itself.

For those of you interested in seeing a demonstration of what this harpsichord model can do with two keyboards inside a DAW, I've got a video I'll share below.


Thanks for this magnificent performance!  This really shows how wonderfully suited the Harpsichord can be for modern music.  Very inspirational!

Reply by dingo

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Lexiavor--what is your keyboard that if feels rather like a fortepiano? I'd love to have a keyboard with that kind of touch--Clive.

Reply by NathanShirley

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

OrganoPleno wrote:

Thanks for this magnificent performance!  This really shows how wonderfully suited the Harpsichord can be for modern music.  Very inspirational!

Thanks, I greatly appreciate it. Each movement is in a fairly different style -- I think the harpsichord is a lot more flexible than a lot of people might assume. 700 years later and it still has potential!

~ Nathan Shirley

https://www.NathanShirley.com

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Reply by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

You have no idea of how much the new harpsichord model pleased me: it basically does every I was asking for! The best thing is not the fact that it can use every register separately or together and the possibility of using two keyboards together: what really marveled me is the new buff stop pedal: finally a "lute stop" that really sounds like a lute! You can also use it on the free harpsichords from the KIVIR collection and on every Pianoteq instrument: I tried it on the Model B and it was quite awesome!
Thanks to everyone who answered me

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

... what really marveled me is the new buff stop pedal: finally a "lute stop" that really sounds like a lute! You can also use it on the free harpsichords from the KIVIR collection and on every Pianoteq instrument: I tried it on the Model B and it was quite awesome!

How do you configure Pianoteq to use the buff pedal with the Model B instrument? (I think the buff-pedal "lute stop" sounds great too.)

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Reply by Gilles

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

... what really marveled me is the new buff stop pedal: finally a "lute stop" that really sounds like a lute! You can also use it on the free harpsichords from the KIVIR collection and on every Pianoteq instrument: I tried it on the Model B and it was quite awesome!

How do you configure Pianoteq to use the buff pedal with the Model B instrument? (I think the buff-pedal "lute stop" sounds great too.)

Right-click on the pedal you want to assign and select from the menu list.

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: (For the developers) The Harpsichord Challenge

Gilles wrote:

Right-click on the pedal you want to assign and select from the menu list.

Sure enough. As simple as it could be. Thank you.  Pianoteq continues to impress me with how good it sounds and how well it is designed.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (26-05-2016 14:51)
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