Topic: Tuning Systems

Is it possible to use for example Wendy Carlos' just scale and change where the reference pitch should be, so that it is possible to use it in more keys than C major? Or, for example, use Pythagorean tuning but change where the unusable fifth is placed? This could be a great opportunity for modelled pianos; since it was perhaps the problem of not being able to retune quickly that got acoustic instruments into equal temperament, you could get rid of this problem with digital pianos, since you can retune in real-time as you modulate.

Re: Tuning Systems

I was wondering about much the same thing myself. The manual says that you can import "scala" files ( http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/ ), and it seems like that could do the job. But there should really be an option to set the preferred key for non-equal temperament tunings. Maybe a feature request is warranted for this one. (I'm just a novice user, so perhaps the feature already exists but I missed it...?)

3/2 = 5

Re: Tuning Systems

I don't know ... on-the-fly non-equal temperament re-tuning sounds like a cure without a disease to me.  The whole reason for well- and equal temperament was to allow one to modulate from any one key center to any other key center and avoid harmonic train wrecks otherwise.  I was born with absolute pitch and grew up hearing the equal temperament system.  Yes, there are errors in tuning, such as striking an interval of a fourth between G3 and Middle C4, one should hear the common overtone of G5 undulate three times in five seconds (or 0.6 Hz).  It's true that good brass players, good singers and good string players are able to "tune" the overtones on the fly.  How many keyboardists and classically trained pianists can tell accurately Pythagorean tuning from Valloti tuning, or Just Intonation in C versus Just Intonation in F, or where the comma is.  Not meaning to sound narrow minded, but I would suggest people learn how to sharpen their playing skills over putting up a smoke screen about tuning.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Tuning Systems

It's always nice to play a well tuned piano, and that's one of the reasons I love Pianoteq.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Tuning Systems

I'm fine with equal temperament (ET) for the most part, but Pythagorean tuning works better for early music with a lot of fifths, for example (since the fifths are purer in Pythagorean tuning than in ET, except for one fifth of twelve that is lowered a Pythagorean comma). Also, the third in ET is far too wide (although you can grow to get used to it), which is why many singers and string players use just intonation, since they are not constrained by fixed tunings and intervals as the piano.

So, using just intonation (JI), for example, works very well in one key - you get more acoustically pure intervals in that key than you get with ET. Wendy Carlos' idea was to tune in JI on an electronic instrument and change the fundamental as you go along modulating between keys; this should be easy enough to do with Pianoteq, and it could be an interesting alternative to ET. As I said, ET is fine, it works well, but it's not the end of the story. A good solution in many ways, but not a perfect solution, the fifths are slightly narrow and the thirds pretty wide.

Re: Tuning Systems

jcfelice88keys wrote:

I don't know ... on-the-fly non-equal temperament re-tuning sounds like a cure without a disease to me. 
...
I would suggest people learn how to sharpen their playing skills over putting up a smoke screen about tuning.

There are good reasons to use different tuning systems. If you have hearing and sense of pitch as good as you say, you should already know that. Sorry to be blunt, but I think it's rude that you reply with nothing more than a dismissal of the OP's question.

3/2 = 5

Re: Tuning Systems

Sorry, but I'm just second to say that though I also got a perfect pitch I care less about tuning at all. If it is somewhat reasonable in tune than it is Ok. My playing abilities worry me so much more. Also I have nothing against other people doing their research in any area including the tuning techniques. ET got it's very strong reasons for self existence. From what I heard the Entropy Tuning techniques seems to be quite promising this days.

Last edited by AKM (27-11-2015 02:17)

Re: Tuning Systems

AKM: OK, again, this has nothing to do with perfect pitch, other than it relates to the fact that people who have got perfect pitch usually have it only with their own instrument, and within a certain tuning system. For example, for someone with perfect pitch in ET with 440 Hz diapason, music with medieval just tuning and perhaps 432 Hz diapason or lower would sound out of tune. Perfect pitch is useful within certain context, but overall, relative pitch is more useful in most musical communities.

But perfect pitch within a certain tuning system doesn't really matter here. What I'm talking about is getting purer 3rds and 5ths than in ET by using a just intonation system that allows changes in the reference pitch on-the-fly. Perfect pitch or not doesn't really matter; I'm discussing pure intervals (2/3 for a fifth, 3/4 for a forth, and so on, and no temperament as in ET).

Re: Tuning Systems

lindmusik wrote:

I'm fine with equal temperament (ET) for the most part, but Pythagorean tuning works better for early music with a lot of fifths, for example (since the fifths are purer in Pythagorean tuning than in ET, except for one fifth of twelve that is lowered a Pythagorean comma). Also, the third in ET is far too wide (although you can grow to get used to it), which is why many singers and string players use just intonation, since they are not constrained by fixed tunings and intervals as the piano.

So, using just intonation (JI), for example, works very well in one key - you get more acoustically pure intervals in that key than you get with ET. Wendy Carlos' idea was to tune in JI on an electronic instrument and change the fundamental as you go along modulating between keys; this should be easy enough to do with Pianoteq, and it could be an interesting alternative to ET. As I said, ET is fine, it works well, but it's not the end of the story. A good solution in many ways, but not a perfect solution, the fifths are slightly narrow and the thirds pretty wide.

I have nothing to add here, really, except that I was impressed that PTQ seems to be quite willing to make accommodations for installing alternative tuning systems, and I suspect you can find exactly what you're looking for as a "scala" file to upload. What comes prepackaged with the software, including meantone (useful for the old keyboards) and a couple of historic "well" (as opposed to "Equal") temperament systems is enough for me; I just go by whether the scale has a sweeter quality or not ... obviously I don't have absolute pitch. I do sometimes choose "well tempered" on the older pianos. But I get the impression that if you get into the weeds with the scala uploading, which is pretty well explained in detail in the documentation, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

Amateur Standalone PTQ user; interests classical music, especially Bach and Mozart, and historic keyboards

Re: Tuning Systems

I’m not really sure. Maybe have a piano tuning service and ask the professional about it? I’m sorry if I’m not of great help but I really hope you get something from my suggestion. Good luck!

click here: http://www.llpianos.co.uk/piano-tuning.html

Re: Tuning Systems

Hi,

You can center any of the in-built tunings on any of the 12 keys, by using a keymap file. Click the little button with Greek letter mu to make the keymap selection box available. For an example, you could save the following text in a file named "a.kbm" (the name of the file doesn't matter) and use it to center any of the tunings on A. Ten other such files can be used for the other non-C keys. Change the lines marked "change this" to generate those other files.


! a.kbm begins here
! Example keyboard mapping for a scale centered on A
!
! Size of map. The pattern repeats every so many keys:
12
! First MIDI note number to retune:
0
! Last MIDI note number to retune:
127
! Middle note where the first entry of the mapping is mapped to (change this):
69
! Reference note for which frequency is given (change this):
69
! Frequency to tune the above note to (change this):
440.0
! Scale degree to consider as formal octave (determines difference in pitch
! between adjacent mapping patterns):
12
! Mapping.
! The numbers represent scale degrees mapped to keys. The first entry is for
! the given middle note, the next for subsequent higher keys.
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

Last edited by Vogelweide (21-07-2016 05:03)