Topic: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

I have been wanting to add some synth sounds.  I know that there are free VST's that provide these sounds.  I see them on Youtube.  The only problem is, I'm not sure how it all works.  Right now, all I have is Pianoteq.  I play it through my Kawai VPC 1.   What is the most simple way to do this?  I'll use SuperWave P8 as an example.  I downloaded it but all I see are "fxp" files when I get into the folders.  After some research, I found out I needed a "daw"?  I downloaded a free version of Cantibile Lite thinking that it would maybe "host" the SuperWave but I'm not having any luck.  Is there an easier way? 
Thanks

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

For synths that don't have a standalone version, yeah you need some program to host them. Pianoteq can also be hosted in a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) as a VST plugin (VST means Virtual Studio Technology, a trademark of Steinberg)

There are many advantages of hosting synths and effects in a DAW. For example, if you layer multiple plugins in a certain way that you like, you can save the whole setup in a project file, and you don't need to redo the setup each time, just load the project file. Another advantage is that you can apply all the DAW's internal effects, and other plugin effects, to your sound-generating plugins (pianoteq, other synth plugins, samplers, etc) - for example if you don't like the chorus effect in pianoteq, you can install and use another one. If you're layering multiple instances of pianoteq, you can disable their reverbs and use one reverb for all of them, which saves some CPU usage.

Renoise is a powerful "tracker" type sequencer that acts as a pretty decent plugin host, i think the demo version doesn't have limitations that hinder hosting plugins. Carla is a powerful free/opensource host that supports pretty much every plugin format in existence, and lets you connect the input/output of plugins (midi, audio, ...) in a very flexible and powerful way.

As for FXP files, these are presets for your plugins. I think FXP means "effects preset".

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

shooter wrote:

I downloaded a free version of Cantibile Lite thinking that it would maybe "host" the SuperWave but I'm not having any luck.  Is there an easier way? 
Thanks

Cantabile is the best VST instruments host for live playing.
It will of course load SuperWave P8.
But you have first to install Superwave as a vst instrument in a folder (in fact, all your vst will go in this folder) and then (in cantabile configuration/options) you will specify the folder where are your vst.
That's all.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Here are the major names in the DAW business, check them up:

Steinberg Cubase
Apple Logic (Mac only)
Ableton Live

Just slightly less popular ones, but still have lots of unique benefits and fans:

Cakewalk Sonar
Presonus Studio One
Bitwig
MOTU Digital Performer (Mac only)
Image Line FruityLoops

Honorable mention (I don't recommend checking, though both are a "big names" in the industry):

AVID Pro Tools
MAGIX Samplitude

Most have the limited versions of their software for around 100 bucks, all of them have some built in synths (and drum machines) and can host VST's. Check their websites, download the demo versions, check the YouTube tutorials, read the manual. My recommendation is either Cubase Elements or Ableton Live Intro, both are cross platform. Audio interfaces or MIDI controller keyboards are often bundled with Cubase or Ableton "lite" versions, so you may get them just for free.

Last edited by AKM (22-07-2015 08:17)

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Slightly of topic, but I think Pianoteq needs to start working on "Stringsteq" that could run in tandem with Pianoteq.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Nope. Let them perfect the piano first - there's still work to be done there.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Just curiosity...  Where do you think pianoteq still needs more changes/refinements ?

EvilDragon wrote:

Nope. Let them perfect the piano first - there's still work to be done there.

Last edited by Beto-Music (22-07-2015 19:25)

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Still some work needed in the attack portion of the sound. It's largely improved in v5 but can still go a bit further. All naysayers not beign able to tell what's a sampled piano and what's Pianoteq in blind tests, that's the holy grail Modartt should strive to accomplish.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

When they get it there will be many reports of executives of sampled piano libraries jumping from the windows of their offices.

EvilDragon wrote:

Still some work needed in the attack portion of the sound. It's largely improved in v5 but can still go a bit further. All naysayers not beign able to tell what's a sampled piano and what's Pianoteq in blind tests, that's the holy grail Modartt should strive to accomplish.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

EvilDragon wrote:

Still some work needed in the attack portion of the sound. It's largely improved in v5 but can still go a bit further. All naysayers not beign able to tell what's a sampled piano and what's Pianoteq in blind tests, that's the holy grail Modartt should strive to accomplish.


The Roland D-50 allegedly had a sampled "attack" with an attached synthesized body.  While the D-50 was a good synth, I don't think any of the sounds are particularly realistic.  I have no doubt you are correct, but I'm essentially satisfied with the sound of the Pianoteq instruments.  A lot depends on the quality of your "speakers" and the electronics that govern them. I'm amazed Pianoteq sounds as good as it does inasmuch as the sound is actually generated from the sound card inside my laptop, and played back through some comparatively low end speakers.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Not really a good comparison there, GRB, D-50 is ages old now, and those samples were very very short and low-resolution.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

BTW sampling and generative seems a great hybrid for me, never thought about it! M. Guillaume, did you ever consider it?

Last edited by AKM (23-07-2015 20:34)

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

AKM wrote:

BTW sampling and generative seems a great hybrid for me, never thought about it! M. Guillaume, did you ever considered it?

It's already been done (TruePianos, Ivory...) before. Philippe is all about getting the model right

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

AKM wrote:

BTW sampling and generative seems a great hybrid for me, never thought about it! M. Guillaume, did you ever considered it?

Of course he did. Most of the action noises (sustain pedal thump, key release, etc) are sampled in Pianoteq - it would make no difference if they were actually modeled. They're actually (very short) gzipped samples embedded in the executable and the VST module, which is why the program doesn't need an extra directory containing those samples.

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Ah, so it's not that unique. Ok pure modelling is sure fun but what about a several years of research of physical audio emulation of fabric behaviour? (hammer material called felds? no?) Ok, it's pure speculation and guessing from my side

Last edited by AKM (24-07-2015 00:46)

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Yes the attack still needs work, a lot of work...
Sometimes when I switch from my Yamaha SH system to Ptq for variety and nicer "lively feel" I miss the sharp attack of the SH. Ptq almost feels 'spongy' in comparison. In isolation and after a while it's very acceptable but the switching ...

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

I personally feel strange about Pianoteq, I love it actually, even that attack issue is kind of cool for me from the perspective of not comparing it to something but just as itself as a new type of instrument. And at the same time I want some progress very much from the developers.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

I've always preferred a piano with softer hammers anyway.   The upper register of my Pianoteq seems very bright.  Everything is a compromise, and Pianoteq has to deal with a hodgepodge of controllers, processors, OSes, sound cards, and speaker systems.  They've done amazingly well.  If there's anything I would like to be improved, it would be better EQ.

Last edited by GRB (24-07-2015 15:40)
Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

...about getting the pianos right first:

ATTACKS - the only thing I've discovered is that I can't get rid of obnoxious hammer noise on some notes.  It looks like there is some cross modeling/sampling going on there between the fundamental and the noise sample/model which makes editing to perfection, impossible.  Even when you lower the hammer noise to minimum and just listen to the fundamental... it is too percussive and sounds like the hammer noise is still there. 

But if you're hearing something wrong with the attacks in general, or don't think there's enough of an attack... I would take a look at your DAC.  We recently conducted a mastering DAC comparison (everything under $5k) and found huge differences in transient reproduction when going from a $700 DAC to a $2500 DAC.  RME's under $2k tend to compress transients/attacks a little whereas a Bench Mark DAC yields a very clear and delightful piano note attack... night and day between the two.  I have everything here in the studio from Apogees, Rolands, Lynx, EMM Labs and I use the Lynx Hilo when playing Live.  If your budget doesn't allow improvement on that front... then rev the pianos up to 96K and you will get considerable improvement.  I have run mine at (internal speed) 192k but I can't find a processor that can handle a full down the piano gliss with the pedal down.  The system belches, PT overloads and cuts out for a second and so I had to drop back to 96k/24bit.

But I do agree with you about getting the pianos right.   The stock renderings of these pianos (all of them), are just not there yet because they are models left without enough tedious editing to make them stunning.  This is the same issue with monster memory VST pianos... no one's doing the hard work.  Not enough work has been done to make the PT pianos playable at concert volumes without ripping someone's head off.  That being said, there are few people knowledgeable and willing to do that tedious work.

The Steinway, Bluethner, even the K2, can be molded into gorgeous instruments but it takes time, infinite patience, and a combination of science and art... not to mention a learning curve to understand the PT software.  The other PT pianos require too much work to get them to the same standard but they are still useful for special apps.  If I purchased PT with the edited models I'm using... it would've saved months of work and that's the level of work I used to spend on the digital pianos I designed for artists all over the world... from scratch.

At one point, I thought about having to lug a laptop with all the weirdnesses and the cables, the DAC and interfaces on the job... versus having an all in the box solution.  So I bought a Roland RD800 and the Yamaha CP4 figuring I would find one or the other would be best... but neither is the best.  The Roland suffers from an non-adjustable, unnaturally short decay and the Yamaha sounds beautiful on stage but playing it convincingly soft is just not in the cards.  If I didn't have the PT pianos prepared and ready, I would have been very frustrated with these keyboards.  So, all the hard editing work was not only worth it but it was the only option to having a magnificent instrument to play that responds perfectly and predictably to every nuance when exposed solo, with demanding passages played delicately soft, and at concert volume.  Incredible.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

wdco, welcome to this forum! Care to share some sound examples of your modified Pianoteq instruments? And, perhaps if kind enough, some FXPs?

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Evil,

You just said exactly what I was thinking!

But I suspect all that tedious work might be 'worth something' to the very patient and skilled developer responsible...

But then, also to hungry or curious potential users.

Cheers,

Stephen.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Yeah, he might go into business selling pianoteq presets

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

Have you tried moving the virtual microphones "away" from the hammers?  You might be surprised what you do -- or do not -- hear.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

For recording... moving the mics is nice to experiment with and it's best to do that after muting all the effects.  The nice part is, you can correct the phase error just in case you didn't move them quite equally from the source. 

But I wouldn't recommend having the mics very far away if you're going to use the piano live in a group as even a tiny bit of ambience might cause the piano to get buried under the spectral weight of other instruments.  I have the mics about as close as I can get them without stirring up too much harmonic disturbance in key areas such as the tenor and upper bass sections. If I really like the sound though... I might consider it worthwhile to jump in and edit out the harmonic aberrations.

I will try to get some time to post something as I would like for people to hear what is possible with some work but my time is stretched and we just added another set of performances. 

Interesting how little is known about PT editing.  In another forum, I mentioned getting notes perfect by fixing mic error, phase error, unison tuning error, and reconstructing the note harmonically... and a few posters scoffed at the idea of "perfect."  I did notice that these criticisms came from folks that own the usual array of monster memory pianos.  However, it is true, you can get notes perfect (free of annoying quirks) and if you do that for the whole piano... you may end up with a perfect instrument.  My guess is with the D4 and particularly the Bluethner, that you should be able to get about 95% of the defects and anomalies in the PT models exorcised.

I'm not sure if PT has video tutorials on editing since KNOWING what to edit is something hard to teach unless you can point it out audibly.  But if I can help and time permits, I will.

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

wdco wrote:

But if I can help and time permits, I will.

Awesome and amazing, sir!

Hard work and guts!

Re: Pianoteq is awesome but.........

I've been thinking about your comment on the attacks of PT pianos... is it the hammer noise that isn't quite right or something else?  And does this show up on all the PT pianos or just one or some?  The hammer noise can be affected by microphone pattern... have you tried some of the other mic sets to see if the problem changes?