Topic by davidizquierdo82

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Topic: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

Hi all,

it's been some months since I've been exploring this and that on PTQ. It was first with my old Yamaha P85 and now with my new Kawai CA97.

I've already posted the issue I had previously when I tried to get the sound  through my former speakers (ESI Classic Near05 and M-Audio BX5 D2), to sum up, no matter what I did, the output signal of PTQ was SOMETIMES too hot for my setup (using a Focusrite 2i4 as sound interface).

Now, I'm using PTQ through the integrated soundboard of the CA97 and I must say I'm as happy as before with the sound, only if there wasn't that annoying "shshhsh" when PLAYING SEVERAL NOTES FORTE AT ONCE HOLDING THE DAMPER, you can see how the line turns yellow and the limiter starts to work harder.

The point is that PTQ behaves well with the many speaker setups I've tried except when playing a bit harder than usually (mainly classical music).

I've tried turning down the input knob on the CA97 to the limit with no result, the only solution is to decrease the main volume on the PTQ interface which is a non desired solution cause I'd like to keep the ratios with the rest of paramenters (specially the dynamics) as they are from factory. I wouldn't like either to use a DAW everytime I want to use PTQ just to lower the whole sound lever from the DAW.

I know there're more users facing the same problelm and it's really frustrating every time I want to play with PTQ I end up swapping to the on-board sounds of the CA97, wouldn't MODDART have a look into the issue please..?

Thanks for your support.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

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Reply by sandalholme

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

I'm no expert, but I'm not sure about the problem with reducing PT's output and the use of the limiter at all.  Following advice on this forum, I disabled the limiter, reduced the volume for each piano in PT so that my fffs did not put it into overload.  My DAC is set to a constant level of output, as are the powered monitors.

The only potential downside for me is in using the same setup for harpsichords and organs with Hauptwerk, where I have to remember to reset the Hauptwerk output volume to zero for organs and -10dB for harpsichords.  But for PT playing, now I have established the right volume settings for each link in the chain, it's switch everything on, disable the DP's native sounds and select its "piano" configuration (there is a separate DP configuration for organ/harpsichord), select which PT instrument, usually the A preset, D4, and play.

Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Hi all,

it's been some months since I've been exploring this and that on PTQ. It was first with my old Yamaha P85 and now with my new Kawai CA97.

I've already posted the issue I had previously when I tried to get the sound  through my former speakers (ESI Classic Near05 and M-Audio BX5 D2), to sum up, no matter what I did, the output signal of PTQ was SOMETIMES too hot for my setup (using a Focusrite 2i4 as sound interface).

Now, I'm using PTQ through the integrated soundboard of the CA97 and I must say I'm as happy as before with the sound, only if there wasn't that annoying "shshhsh" when PLAYING SEVERAL NOTES FORTE AT ONCE HOLDING THE DAMPER, you can see how the line turns yellow and the limiter starts to work harder.

The point is that PTQ behaves well with the many speaker setups I've tried except when playing a bit harder than usually (mainly classical music).

I've tried turning down the input knob on the CA97 to the limit with no result, the only solution is to decrease the main volume on the PTQ interface which is a non desired solution cause I'd like to keep the ratios with the rest of paramenters (specially the dynamics) as they are from factory. I wouldn't like either to use a DAW everytime I want to use PTQ just to lower the whole sound lever from the DAW.

I know there're more users facing the same problelm and it's really frustrating every time I want to play with PTQ I end up swapping to the on-board sounds of the CA97, wouldn't MODDART have a look into the issue please..?

Thanks for your support.

Here what I do to plug Pianoteq on my Roland HP-507:

1° I let the input level on the Roland at its factory level (for me 5/10). This way you have not so much noise on the system.
2° Standard output Level in Pianoteq = -7dB. This will prevent from the saturation you described. Let the limiter on.
3° On my Focusrite 6i6, volume at 100% (with the knob), the software remains at its factory level.
4° On my Roland, fixed output level to 3/4.
5° Global sound volume adjusted (increased) with that, between the Focusrite and the Roland:
http://www.thomann.de/fr/samson_sconvert.htm

No more problems to adjust the levels, no saturation...

Reply by davidizquierdo82

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

Thanks stamkorg and sandalholme for replying.

I know, as you say, decreasing the output level of PTQ (usually around -8dB) solves the issue, but as you also well pointed out, if you freeze the volume (say at -8dB) it will work fine for some patches but not for those which are set to different volumes by default (note that not all patches are 0dB by default).

What you describe (saturation) is definetely the result of a hot signal comming out of PTQ. In my case, I cannot even put the blame on the soundcard cause I'm using the unbalanced outputs (which btw give a lower output than the balanced) and cannot manipulate the volume per knob or similar, so I'm just using PTQ's output signal through my 2i4 directly into my speaker system.

I wonder wether it's gonna be properly solved some day..

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

davidizquierdo82's Website

Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

I know, as you say, decreasing the output level of PTQ (usually around -8dB) solves the issue, but as you also well pointed out, if you freeze the volume (say at -8dB) it will work fine for some patches but not for those which are set to different volumes by default (note that not all patches are 0dB by default).

Just, that's why I set manually the output volume inside Pianoteq for each patch to obtain the expected sound volume. But I only use 2 or 3 patches. It is not a problem for me.

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

What you describe (saturation) is definetely the result of a hot signal comming out of PTQ. In my case, I cannot even put the blame on the soundcard cause I'm using the unbalanced outputs (which btw give a lower output than the balanced) and cannot manipulate the volume per knob or similar, so I'm just using PTQ's output signal through my 2i4 directly into my speaker system.

What happened if you, for example, decrease the Pianoteq's output volume from 0 to -6dB; and increase your speakers from the same amount? If I am not wrong, you shoul be able to have the same total volume without saturation

Reply by davidizquierdo82

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

What happened if you, for example, decrease the Pianoteq's output volume from 0 to -6dB; and increase your speakers from the same amount? If I am not wrong, you shoul be able to have the same total volume without saturation

If I only decreased the volume say by -8dB the problem would be solved, even if I turn up my speakers volume. I'd get the same total volume without saturation.

Now the thing is that I've got many patches and the factory volume varies in each of them. Apart of that, changing the volume on PTQ should be done together with the dynamics parameter, hence I think it's a better solution if this issue were revised by MODDART, specially if you've got many patches you use now and then..

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

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Reply by cpcohen

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

. . . Apart of that, changing the volume on PTQ should be done together with the dynamics parameter,  . . .

I don't think so!

The "dynamics" parameter controls the difference between pp and FF.  Changing the "dynamics" gives you a different-feeling piano. 

The "volume" setting controls the level of output for _all_ loudnesses.   If you cut the "volume" by 3 dB, _all_ loudnesses -- pp / mf / FF -- will decrease by 3 dB.

Changing the "volume" (if you don't run the soundcard into overload) is the same as changing the "gain" or "volume" setting on the loudspeaker (or amp).

.        Charles

Reply by davidizquierdo82

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

cpcohen wrote:

The "dynamics" parameter controls the difference between pp and FF.  Changing the "dynamics" gives you a different-feeling piano. 

The "volume" setting controls the level of output for _all_ loudnesses.   If you cut the "volume" by 3 dB, _all_ loudnesses -- pp / mf / FF -- will decrease by 3 dB.

Hi Charles,

You're right in what you described above. Now keep in mind that the ear perception of the dynamics changes according to the volume it reaches to the ear (even if the volume is adjusted via speakers knob).

Of course everyone can adjust the dynamics at his preference just by moving the assigned slide, but it can drive you crazy if you start to fiddle with every single patch, cause in this case, freezing parameters is not an option.

So, the point of my post is to explain the problem with the hot signal comming out of PTQ and wether it could be solved (maybe MODDART to decrease the total volume of the patches) keeping the ratios between volume and dynamics as they come by default..

Regards,
David

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

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Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

I've tried turning down the input knob on the CA97 to the limit with no result, the only solution is to decrease the main volume on the PTQ interface which is a non desired solution cause I'd like to keep the ratios with the rest of paramenters (specially the dynamics) as they are from factory. I wouldn't like either to use a DAW everytime I want to use PTQ just to lower the whole sound lever from the DAW.


I read the post again, and I find something strange at least from my experience.
For me the Pianoteq sound becomes saturated only when I play very (very!!) hard...
Are you sure you don't have a very soft keyboard setting on your Kawai? This could explain why the sound increases to a hot level rapidly.

My experience is different. I find the overal volume low in Pianoteq... I must boost it to obtain a playable level on my Roland.
For example if I hear a cd or a wav file on my system, and after that I play Pianoteq, the sound seems to be very low...

Reply by davidizquierdo82

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Re: Setting up PTQ and Kawai CA97 (or any other speakers)

stamkorg wrote:

I read the post again, and I find something strange at least from my experience.
For me the Pianoteq sound becomes saturated only when I play very (very!!) hard...
Are you sure you don't have a very soft keyboard setting on your Kawai? This could explain why the sound increases to a hot level rapidly.

My experience is different. I find the overal volume low in Pianoteq... I must boost it to obtain a playable level on my Roland.
For example if I hear a cd or a wav file on my system, and after that I play Pianoteq, the sound seems to be very low...

Well, I have made some new findings on this matter: It actually happens to me specially when playing some of the patches like e.i. "K2 clean player" which is initially set up to +3dB. I cannot recall exactly what patches are causing this problem but I'm sure this one is not the only one.

EDIT: K2 Piano specially when playing 5th Octave notes together with damper and left hand notes.

Now, some will insist in freezing the volume slide to 0dB or even less than it in order to get rid of this saturation.

The problem is: I've set up my line-in input (a knob) on my Kawai to a value which is the optimal one for playing the "Blüthner daily practice" seamlessly. Said that, there are some patches causing problems with this setup. If I change the line-in on my piano to match the outcomming volume of these patches, I'll hear the "blüthner" (among others) lower than desired.

Setting the volume of all patches to 0dB is neither a solution since I'll hear a noticeable difference of volumes when playing (as per the original differences on volume of these patches).

I hope I was able to clarify the problem..

I cannot help you on your roland since what I do is to take the "clean" output signal out from my soundcard (no volume manipulation possible) to the input on my CA97 adjutsting the line-in level as prefered.. (wonder whether you do it like this too). So, what I finally get is a volume playing PTQ through my Kawais' speakers similar to the volume of the on-board sounds comming out of it (although I can miss a bit of bass on the PTQ but I just turn on the EQ and done).

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (19-05-2015 10:40)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

davidizquierdo82's Website