Hi all. I am using Pianoteq 5 with Sennheiser HD 598 headphones. I was in a Yamaha dealership a few weeks ago and was playing the Disklavier. The Salesman had me slip on the headphones and play. It was remarkable how the sound seemed to come from the piano instead of the headphones. My question is, can this effect be produced with my setup? Thanks for your help!
Hello Shooter,
I am familiar with Yamaha Disklaviers in terms of their design, operation, and feel while playing. I also understand that Sennheiser 598 headphones are open-backed (rather than close backed) cans that sit over-the-ear.
Two thoughts come to mind:
1) In and of themselves, it is nearly impossible to experience a set of headphones generating a sound whose source appears to originate from in front of you. Are you sure the Disklavier dealer actually disengaged the acoustic piano's action from the strings while you were listening through the headphones? (Surely then, a person with open-backed, over-the-ear headphones is able to hear more of the ambient room noise ... than of a noise-cancelling and/or closed-back set of 'phones.)
2) In the event that the piano's action was disengaged from the strings, it is still very true that the human mind is extremely good at imagining you are hearing something in front of you. In other words, the mind is quite able to "fill in the blanks" in terms of convincing us that we are hearing an acoustic piano in front of us, even when listening exclusively to headphones.
I am not here to discredit you in any way; I have experienced listening to Disklaviers through headphones and have marveled at their sounds. At the same time, I was always able to tell (while listening to the electronic version of the Disklavier) through headphones ... when the piano's action was disengaged. It sounded darned good -- that is, until the piano's action was re-engaged and I was able to hear both the electronic sound combined with the real piano's strings and soundboard.
Food for thought,
Cheers, Joe
Hi Joe.
Thanks for the reply. I too thought that he hadn't disengaged the acoustics and on board speaker, so I slid the headphones away while he remained standing where he was and, so it was. Everything was being fed through the headphones. I also agree that our mind can play tricks on us, but he never said anything beforehand about this effect. It was a total surprise to me. I ask him how Yamaha did this and he didn't know if it was that particular headphone or the setup in the Disklavier.
Andre
You could probably do it if you had 3D audio headphones .. much like how with 3D speakers, you can simulate audio source position.
Hi all. I am using Pianoteq 5 with Sennheiser HD 598 headphones. I was in a Yamaha dealership a few weeks ago and was playing the Disklavier. The Salesman had me slip on the headphones and play. It was remarkable how the sound seemed to come from the piano instead of the headphones. My question is, can this effect be produced with my setup? Thanks for your help!
The Disklavier may be implementing some sort of Head-related transfer function (HRTF) technology when sending output to the headphones which happens to match your particular head/ear shape. I've tried Pianteq's binaural mode, which I believe also implements some from of HRTF implementation, but I find it falls well short.
Probably the best way to replicate what you have heard on the Disklavier using Pianoteq is to incorporate ToneBoosters TB Isone VST plugin with a VST host (I use Cantabile). This is an incredible piece of software and very inexpensive for what it does. It takes a lot of tweaking to get the setting right for you and your headphones/earphones but it is well worth the effort.
I posted a similar topic before:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3701
Needless to say, I haven't yet achieved it. I keep moving that crazy head around in binaural mode, but I can't get it to sound like it's actually coming from the piano in front of me. It's either too "close," or too "far"; too "full" or too "empty" (I put those in quotes because they're totally subjective and hard to explain).
In my opinion, all the microphone options in Pianoteq are really just nonsense for people who just want to play (not record). Who cares about all those dang mics?! I started using binaural mode specifically for that reason—you shouldn't have your sound filtered through the properties of some crazy microphone brand if you're just practicing. But I still haven't been able to create the "illusion of the piano in the room."
Ha, this is all very easy to accomplish!! I use this for all my headphones listening, and playing the piano and organ virtual models.
I use Toneboosters Isone as a VST plug-in, where you can set the crossfeed needed to get rid of the exaggerated L/R effect with phones.
Besides, you can, if you wish, also mimic rooms and speakers if you would like so.
Ands it costst a mere E 20 or so.........I find it a lot better than the binaural effect inside Pianoteq. It changes less of the sound, and only moves your ears more to the front so to speak.....
Greetings,
Geert
Thanks, Tiger 22 and geert, for the tip about ToneBoosters Isone. I downloaded the trial version this evening. It works great and makes monitoring through headphones sound unbelievably good. The download also contained trial versions of their other products. The reverb plugin works well with Pianoteq, too. it really feels and sounds as if the piano is actually in the room. The lower register of the piano especially has space for the sounds to bloom. The trial versions are fully functional, except for not being able to save settings. But that's fine for my use with Reaper.
Thanks, again!
I really need to try Isone. I also struggled with binaural mode. Recently I abandoned it and have been getting much better results from 4 mics. I use a stereo pair close to the piano and a second pair about 2 metres behind (and maybe higher up). Crucially, the level compensation is on but the delay compensation is off. This set up, when tweaked right, can give the bass more presence, a more pronounced attack, and the general feeling of the piano being in a real space, especially when combined with the right amount of reverb. I don't know why it works, but maybe the second pair of mics models reflected sound well. Also, it doesn't sound so good through speakers, only headphones.
Mooks, would you be so kind as to post an FXP as an example? I would love to see/hear this setup. Thanks!
Mooks, would you be so kind as to post an FXP as an example? I would love to see/hear this setup. Thanks!
Sure:
Erard Headphone 4 Mic
D4 Headphone 4 Mic
It's worth playing around. On different days I seem to have different preferences.
In tweaking these, I've been using the editing feature where you can pair the microphones by double clicking halfway between them, and then adjust their separation and combined rotation. You can also combine all 4 as a group and move/rotate the whole lot around the piano. This is such a great feature!
Also remember you can save the mic set up as a mini preset, or you can do a Parameter Freeze on all the Output Settings to try different pianos with the same mics. Note that what sounds good with one piano can sound a bit off with another. I often need to adjust the mic separation, or move the nearest mics closer or further away.
Yeah I think that you can get this effect with this setup. There is another solution to this problem. I suggest you to try out some other Headphone brands. In my opinion the Klipsch Audio Technologies provide best Headphone.
Yeah, i too was amazed at the stereo width / stereo effect in the disklavier's sound through headphones, listening to a video promo for the disklavier on youtube with my audio-technica ath-m50 headphones. Especially the in the low/mid-low range... i remember even trying to replicate the effect in ptq and posting a thread about it here
/* edit */ sorry, it wasn't a disklavier, it was yamaha's "silent piano" - thread in question is here:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3474