Using Pianoteq with Orchestral Libraries

So I'm now responding to Custral's post 181:

About what you describe as the crunching of the volume levels: It occurs to me that your recording software or Notion3, or the Wave-to-MP3 converter, might have some kind of loudness normalizing feature, or dynamic range compression, that is by default, or by accident, turned on, so that all of the tracks are rendered at similar levels. It may be that simple.

But I'm not sure how recording audio is handled in Notion3. Separate questions, here:

1. Does it record directly to wave, so that you then have to use another program to convert to an mp3?
2. Does the wave recording sound better to you in terms of having different levels for each instrument\track? (Could the problem be in the midi file--the dynamic range is limited there? Or in the settings for a template in Notion3?)
3. Assuming that you have to convert a wave file to an mp3, have you tried what many people will suggest--the free program Audacity?

I'm curious, in any case. Do other people who use orchestral libraries encounter this problem of tracks being set to the same perceived amplitude level somewhere in the process?

Hi, Joe. Didn't mean to cause confusion with your other thread.

I wonder if Notion3 also has a default note-on velocity. Hadn't really occurred to me, since I don't seriously use orchestral libraries, that loading a score will be a problem, since the score, unless it was created using a midi controller (and done well) or carefully marked with dynamics, will render everything at the same velocity.

I had posted a long reply to Jake, but broke off to watch the Transit of V, and when I returned my post had gone. So this is a summary!

I've used Audacity before, but its MP3-export is new to me. It requires first installing LAME, which I did to the letter of Audacity's instructions. Exporting MP3 then makes NO provision for tweaking of any sort, you take what you get and like it. Well I don't, neither do you. I'm in the market for an editor which does MP3 better.

I rank the quality I hear like this, where the chevrons indicate degradation : >N3, >>>32bit WAV export from N3, >>>>>>LAME MP3 export from Audacity. So MP3 is twice as bad as WAV, probably more. N3 scores a chevron simply because it can't be perfect, but it's the best I hear, by those degrees of chevron-differences from the other two steps. And why N3's own 32-bit WAV export (!) should be that much degraded beats me.

I'd previously begun a description of N3's Mixer, which etto calls "excellent", and I wouldn't know, no comparisons to judge by. It has 3 sorts of entity sporting controls : Channel Strips (as many as you have staves); Buses (A, B, C, D); and Master. Channels can output to Master, to a single Bus, or to a mix of Bus and Master where the ratio is set by a little twiddler inside each channel strip. The default is 0% to Bus, 100% to Master. A third option is thus 100% to Bus (and THEN either to Master or external equipment). The external output option also holds for each channel, and consists of UP TO 32 stereo-pairs of outlets, you can implement how many and which of the 32 from inside each channel, so you could have at saturation 32 staves each going a different place, and above that (say above 36 staves) some amount of mixed-output would be needed. As well, you might WANT mixed-output to external inputs, say you had just 4 external inputs to go to, and 16 instruments going inside N3.

Since output-default is 100% to Master, it is Master-output I hear from inside N3, and which >N3 uses to export its 32-bit >>>WAVs from. So my my best hope of nixing both > and >>> lies in some now-unknown software (probably VST) to slot into the external-input provision Mixer gives me. And I'm looking for what might be out there right Now.

AT the same time I last posted on THIS topic I was also downloading the 7 GB of sound that Miroslav Philharmonik has. Yep, I got scared into saving ~30 Euros on a deal that had one day left, so I jumped eyes shut. When I dropped Miroslav Strings into the slots of the N3 Strings 'playing' in PRAYER 1B.MP3 as posted here, I was at first DUMBSTRUCK, so florid the result was by contrast. That effect has since worn off, and the Miro strings now sound ordinary.

Like etto I'm no expert at tweaking Miroslav, my Miro-use has been confined to what N3 gives me, just notating, a bit of reverb, and Mixing and Panning. At its right-hand end, N3's notation palette has a tab that expands into a list of techniques the N3 instrument you have currently-selected offers, its effects.  That's true of Miroslav instrument effects  too, and it looks to be a bigger list, but not by very much. The floridity is the main diff between sets.

Indeed, to answer one of your questions directly (forget the number), it could well be a relative monotony of the N3 default samples NOTION counts on to sell its London Symphony offering. THAT could be the "unknown setting" you suspect is present. (Not but what such a setting might exist, unknown to me; I'm STILL looking for a command that'll let me add pages to a score, without luck. Surely one must exist?)

Plus the impression of floridity wears off. That'd bear repeating. What you hear gets 'ordinary', fast.

Anyway I'll now re-post the N3 score of PRAYER 1B with Miroslav dropped in where N3 was, as PRAYER 1J MIRO.MP3. Also in Mixer the locations of the strings and Pianoteq is tightened up. Through headphones (not marvelous ones either) the hearing's much sharper. Of course, >, >>>, and >>>>>> still apply, but Miroslav plus the tightening (and headphones) must help.

EDIT: CAPITALISE a sentence-start.

ADDED : Just noticed. It is not "crunching of the the volume levels" I meant. If I said it I misspoke, and can't recall doing so. No, it is DEFINITION that has gone, THAT's the degradation, and why is not a wonder. You can't throw away data in pursuit of compression, and expect anything other than relative BLUR to result, the more you ask compression the worse the blur.

I suspect that Audacity's use of LAME to export MP3, paying off in a dialog that doesn't allow selective compression (like I *know* other MP3-crunchers do) results in a savage compression, ie blur. One WAV I started with (N3 is at 32-bits in my hands, remember) was ~17 MB, while after LAME was through, it was ~500 KB.

One thinks of shrunken heads. Off now to crunch PRAYER 1J MIRO.

MORE : upload done, and the MP3 you hear is A) a crunch by SOUND FORGE AUDIO (I just couldn't stand the screech-and-boom of the Audacity/LAME version); B) much smoother as to screech, even via Mylar headphones. If you have an equaliser in your sound chain, you might want to drop the Bass a bit. Plus I now realise I boosted the Pianoteq part too much. Makes the Strings a mere accompaniment.

It would be wonderfull if Modartt creates a mixed range brass, and strings.

I mean get many brass and combine in a single instrument, combining the tessiture, creating a brass that olay along the etire range of the piano keysboard.  The same for strings.

Sorry for resurrecting this but I eventually worked on the piece and finished it; you can listen it here

http://soundcloud.com/edc-4/winterman

Hi Hervé, thank you
I'm sorry for the voice but when I do tracks to sell on Royalty free sites I must put a watermark on them..
Right now the only video existing is still in my head but maybe one day...

Time for some disburdening - free what's next the aim. True to the thread title I've tried to amplify Mozart K310 3rd movement using Pianoteq and libraries in NOTION 3, to make a small ensembled rework (not that WAM needs my efforts any, rather I need a *plan* to get on with, and this is a ripper). Broadly, a melody line (right hand) is set against a rhythm section (left), to interplay into many many syncopations, always using dead simple means, drop dead neatly.

The Pianoteq instruments are Handpan, PTQ (which do melody), plus Tank (rhythm).

The other instruments are Horn - probably Flugelhorn, Bass (from NOTION's bundled samples). And Bassoon, Flugelhorn, and Classical Guitar (from Miroslav Symphony). In my thinking these do rhythm, though of course melody comes with it.

If you want a fresher on the original piece, here's a video -

http://server3.pianosociety.com/protect...ascale.wmv

- but if you can't handle Windows Media Video (hint, VLC player should, Win or Mac) here's Audio -- same player, very different performance.

http://server3.pianosociety.com/protect...ascale.mp3 .

Performer is Tom Pascale, and if you like Tom's Yamaha, here's the rest of the Sonata. 

http://server3.pianosociety.com/protect...ascale.mp3
http://server3.pianosociety.com/protect...ascale.mp3

I've posted as much as I've done, as 'K310 PRESTO H 17 PT A.mp3', meaning I intend to follow up with parts B and C.

Hope you like it!

Hum. Dunno what went bad there. But this

http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=198

should reach the page linking to all 4 contents. Just find K 310 (Tom Pascale) and connect. Yup, I just tried this from here, and *it* works, at least.

ADDED: forgot to add in Trombone above, as one of the Miroslav instruments. It appears (at Pan 3 PM) in a short duel with Bassoon (Pan 10 AM), while PTQ and Handpan fight it out between.

.

So I posted in the Request for Pianoteq Usage thread, adding I was about to post here. After some research to get best result, this is it now.

I accessed Doug's WAY YOU LOOK TONIGHT (trio) and played it thru PTQ. Naturally it buzzed with parts 2 and 3 so I wanted to clean it down to piano solo - and turned to NOTION3. I'm sure other notation programs will do disambiguation of parts too, and I probably own one, at least. But if 'try pleasing all and please none' is good advice, so should 'don't try to cover every case' be, and I'll stick to NOTION.

As I said in the parent thread to this, a one part midi can be imported to N3 then converted to a score via 1) Edit/Select All; 2) Tools/Convert to Notation. Easy. However this approach applied to this trio leads to a semi- stymie, since either you must live without Pianoteq doing the piano track, but rather the bundled N3 Piano doing it; or you must prepare a score with a PTQ track plus Bass and Drums tracks, then

A)1) Edit/Select All; 2) Edit/Copy; all within the notated window. 3) Paste within the PTQ-ready window. The result at first looks plausible, and is, as far as the PTQ and Bass tracks are concerned.

But the Drums track looks like a dog's breakfast, and if listened to solo (mute the other tracks and push the Drums slider to the roof), you hear only a very occasional touch of wirebrush on snaredrum. Since the Drums track is clearly a lot more complex than the Bass, though considered as a Duo the approach is a success, as a Trio it's another semi-stymie, a flop for getting a full grip on the jazz stylings of Doug Mackenzie.   

So return to the Original notated window, mute Piano and Bass, push Drums to the roof, look and listen. Doug is using at least bongo or similar, plus some kind of pitched percussion. The Drums score too does not look like a dog's breakfast. These semi-stymies only offer each a half-marriage however,.

B) So equip the original notated window with a PTQ track, then copy and paste from the Piano track to PTQ? The sorry result is that only the upper clef music pastes. ANOTHER semi-stymie!

C) The only fix I (yet) know of for B) is to 1) select as many bars from Piano's bass clef as the window now shows, then copy and paste that into the corresponding PTQ measures. 2) Move to the next window of Piano bass clef notes. 3) Do 1) and 2) until the PTQ track stands complete.

Now Doug's trio can be seen and heard as intended. At least, it's as convincing as I've yet managed with N3.

EDIT for tidy. And

ADD: the original to Doug's Drums track reads in N3 as music, and looking at the pitched percussion part of it, there's few pitches, so what he'd hear would be as drone-like as bagpipes, pitchwise. And he'd drop his volume slider accordingly so as not to clobber his Piano. Exactly as his Drums come across in midi.

Since that's so, his Drums is a subtle Rhythm track, and pretty much any pitched percussion sounds you'd use as equivalents should work equally well. You could even assign the different pitches to different instruments, which may be what Doug in fact was using.

Is there a link to the recording? I don't see it on the "Other Files" page for this forum. (Are your previous links still active? When I click on the Play wedge in your previous post in this thread, there is no sound, and if I click on the links to the mp3's, I'm taken to dead pages. Is it just me? I'm looking forward to hearing more of Notion's native instruments and how Pianoteq sits in the mix.)

So, running N4 found there was an update going, and without reflection OK'd it. With direct result the 'Upright' Bass I've been using for PRESTO has gone, vanished, exited, got lost. Died, and nothing I try Lazaruses it. I'd complain, except a better effect comes to save the situation by replacing 'Upright' with 'Contrabass', and glad I am I had to.

Told to play pizzicato, CBass does, with a 'blonder' tone (which blends well with C. Guitar to near make a composite harp of the pair); and with a lack of reverb to the sampling which lets CBass pick out the diffs between half, quarter & eighth notes accurately, in a way Upright with its reverb-overhang never could. Thus in running passages you get music and rhythmic points made, instead of grumble. Wins everywhere.

On a roll, I sprung for the Jazz Brass Bundle, since the Trumpet that comes routinely with Notion's such a pathetic effort (so's Miroslav's, seems the instrument is difficult so the samplers just don't try). And dropped the Trombone from the bundle straight in-place of Notion's routine effort. Not that I dislike its scratchy edge, but this fat tone to the the replacement calls clear back to Tommy Dorsey, and I'm liking it (may try them in duet later). Plus I hauled out the bundle's Baritone Sax, and made it follow the Bassoon (but a sixth lower, and at far less volume). The result mixes to a composite instrument, for now, I'll redo the sax later, likely by leaving in just the beat-notes and lowest notes. Presently the sax just adds a lot of blowfly-buzz plus occasional pop to the lowest notes on Bassoon. I'll see about Trumpet later.

I also remixed the new material to make it a more worthwhile listen.

It's up, in Other Files. I'll leave the 'Upright'-Bass version still up for a bit, for comparisons.

It doesn't take much to bury ANY musical line - merely make a duet and you begin to lose the battle. Four lines and you'll be dead lucky to get isolated moments of prominence to any one. Happens to be the case that four are on the go in the last phase of PRESTO, here (though I let the Bass, particularly, take rests, helping the situation).

What's more, the top-down plan for this Recap-section at outset was to LOSE the donner-and-blitzen treatment it gets from piano interpreters, instate here instead a conspicuous DIFF from ordinary presentation, a QUIET(ish) one. So I gave the recap material to that slender voice, Classical Guitar, plus topped that by dropping the octave down to C.G.'s baritone range for the most part (soprano sounds stick out).

Consequence was inevitable: the Pianoteq line had to be toned down hard - set low in pitch, plenty of space between notes and cut up long-lines-of-pattern. Even then, C.G. fights for its moments (though mostly with Handpan, frolicking high up and strongly). It was a juggle, where PT had to sit right down.

I notice this too and it annoys me too, but there's no help for it, here. Results come direct from design.

The design problem's even starker for the preceding section, which in its Mozart-conventional-form is an easing-down from a rowdy passage, readying play for the donner&blitzen contrast the Recap is to make. Since I set out to disagree with that plan, I cut up Mozart's lines and scattered them across eight voices - eight (talk about chances for burial). Yet by use of plenty of soprano and arpeggios and jumping around, Pianoteq does break thru somewhat (and the very last phraselet it makes in this section is a deliberate bring-forward via increase to mP - compare versions to hear the diff - done since I like the phraselet enough to rescue it, it happens to be non-Mozart).

So though I agree with your observation re burial, some, it follows from my perverse CHOICES. Why make them? Simply I want variety, and the challenge of instrumentation forces harder seeking of how-to's, as the project moves on.

To answer your question about dynamic marks, different instruments in the Notion package respond differently to them, and often, differently again in different contexts. That becomes a business of trial and error plus knowing when to quit. Estimating the difficulty a software machine faces in deriving intelligible music from sampling, it's a wonder it can perform at all, let alone at a price of say $250 (sure there's Vienna Symphonic Library; and there's also a stupendous price, together with worries that having paid it how far into the future will it stay functional?). I can't complain, think Notion does pretty well, often even sensitively. 

In the package, I see too, is something called Dynamic Overlay (or the like, forget for the moment), whereby thru a couple of different methods you can impose note-by-note MIDI values on output - where the idea's to curb needing incessant varying-by-dynamic marks. Real life orchs require a conductor and rehearsals, to bring the players into line with some vision, rather than constant score-marks, and this is Notion's equivalent. Limited only by standard MIDI.

But let's revert to how I opened. The more lines, the more burial. I wrote a little piece last week, Pianoteq-only. Its accompaniment (left hand) gets increasingly complex across the piece. Plus increasingly tends to bury its own details, and the melody's.

It's posted. Cross fingers I toed the lines (think I did).