Topic by Patrick

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  • Patrick
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Topic: Sustain pedal playing piano versus forte

Hi Guys,

I have the impression that the effect of the sustain pedal is stronger when playing piano and less strong when playing forte. Normally I do not find this is a problem.

But when playing a pianissimo percussion in the middle section with some louder keys making up the melody, then these louder keys sound staccato and the pianissimo notes sound muddy.

Any one found this issue and a solution?

Of course such effects are relative and I found them comparing with both a grand piano (unknown manufacturer, it was a Bechstain fake and my parents thought they found a bargain) and a Roland700NX (Using the "Bright Concert" preset) which I bought after seeing Vika (Viktoriya Yermoliyeva) in Youtube.

Patrick

PS: Did nobody complain about pianoteq not having a zoomfactor? Do you all have eagle eyes?

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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  • jcfelice88keys
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Re: Sustain pedal playing piano versus forte

Patrick wrote:

Hi Guys,

I have the impression that the effect of the sustain pedal is stronger when playing piano and less strong when playing forte. Normally I do not find this is a problem.

But when playing a pianissimo percussion in the middle section with some louder keys making up the melody, then these louder keys sound staccato and the pianissimo notes sound muddy.

Any one found this issue and a solution?

[...]

Patrick

Hello Patrick,

In a good-quality acoustic grand piano, when depressing the sustain pedal while playing pianissimo, the effect is to release all of the dampers, and allow all of the strings to resonate in sympathetic vibration.  The better the piano, the lesser amount of kinetic energy is lost from the vibrating strings to the piano's frame and body.  This entire effect becomes more noticeable when the piano's lid is raised to its uppermost position.  If the piano lid is completely closed, the effect due to sustain pedal effect on loudness goes almost unnoticed.

What you describe, regarding the effect of playing loudly with the sustain pedal, if you are playing with a truly excellent quality piano, the sustain effect will seem increased rather than decreased.  Of course, in a standard to lesser quality piano (especially in almost all upright pianos), when playing loudly with the sustain pedal depressed, the effect is proportionally less noticed. 


Note, however, there comes into play a psychoacoustic term called the "Fletcher-Munson Effect", wherein the amount of loudness you perceive to hear (or don't hear) is dependent upon the pitches/frequencies being sounded.  Then, again, there is also an effect of "Just Noticeable Difference", wherein a loud sound needs to sound exponentially (logarithmically) louder before you begin to perceive that difference as being heard.

* * * * * * * *

Regarding your question about a solution to the problem you describe, here are some countermeasures for you to try in Pianoteq:

If louder keys sound staccato, I might suggest you make a User Preset with the hammer hardnesses reduced in the forte velocity range.  They will still be somewhat loud, because they are still hitting the strings with comparatively high velocity, but some of that staccato "edge" can be tamed.

Regarding a muddy sound, presumably when the sustain pedal is depressed, you might consider downwardly adjusting the string resonance slider in Pianoteq.  I do not know of any corresponding adjustments available in a Roland 700NX product.


Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (19-09-2011 03:23)

Reply by Patrick

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Re: Sustain pedal playing piano versus forte

Thanks for the explanation Joe.

am sorry, I can see now, that I formulated ambiguously. I was comparing Pianoteq on one side with the two other pianos on the other and those two to my taste behave better in this regard as compared to Pianoteq.

To my taste it is not so important that things really sound like a true piano. If Pianoteq creates a new sound different from other pianos thats ok and if this sound is so good that Steinway, Fazoli and others start to try to imitate Pianoteq, that would be cool. After all these manufacturers have to fight physical forces that Pianoteq needs not to care about.

But being comparatively more stacatto when getting louder if find a bit ugly.

What you describe, regarding the effect of playing loudly with the sustain pedal, if you are playing with a truly excellent quality piano, the sustain effect will seem increased rather than decreased.  Of course, in a standard to lesser quality piano (especially in almost all upright pianos), when playing loudly with the sustain pedal depressed, the effect is proportionally less noticed.

 

I did not know that, but the effect of being stronger with more loudness rather then lesser is what I find appealing. Unfortunately Pianoteq has the opposite effect with standard settings. I wonder why nobody notices.

Note, however, there comes into play a psychoacoustic term called the "Fletcher-Munson Effect", wherein the amount of loudness you perceive to hear (or don't hear) is dependent upon the pitches/frequencies being sounded.  Then, again, there is also an effect of "Just Noticeable Difference", wherein a loud sound needs to sound exponentially (logarithmically) louder before you begin to perceive that difference as being heard.

I would guess, Fletcher is a problem for the piano manufacturers but not for Pianoteq.

If louder keys sound staccato, I might suggest you make a User Preset with the hammer hardnesses reduced in the forte velocity range.

I tried already but it did not work. But now that you mention it, maybe it does actually work if I tweak the velocity curve at the same time. I will try that on the weekend.

Cheers,

Patrick