Could the duplex scale be modeled differently ?

Gilles,

About your second point: would it help if we could tune the Duplex scale? A big feature addition, since it would have to be note-by note. But it may be what you are suggesting. Not so much a change in the model as this one control? It would give you the ability to change the relationship of the partials to the partials of the main string and the unisons and thus how everything beats. That would control the glassiness or springiness, etc?

The new K1 sounds very, very good. I'm still exploring all of its possibilities. At the same time, I've also wanted to post something else about what I think is a combination of this duplex sound, the direct sound, and the soundboard sound.

Now, to me, each note seems to move in a steady progression from the strings to the soundboard. But when I listen to recordings, I sometimes hear two very distinct sounds that occur at the same time: One is a more rounded sound, and the other is a more crisp sound. They overlap for a time, and then the rounded sound fades, leaving the more crisp sound to fade. I'm not sure what "sound sources" contribute to each distinct sound. I suspect that the duplex strings contribute most to the initial rounded sound, since I think their purpose is to make the piano sing a bit more.

I also want these two sounds to occupy more distinct places in the vertical spread--the rounded sound usually seems to be a little higher, and the crisp decay to come from lower down, perhaps fading towards the rear of the piano from the player's perspective. In fact, it may be the vertical separation of the sounds that I need the most--the two distinct sounds may be there, but I because they come from the same place, they get combined.

But I'm not really sure if all of this is related to the duplex or not. So don't let me hijack your thread. I can move off onto another thread if what I'm describing is something else altogether.

I hope my post was not taken as a criticism of the new K1 which I like a lot.

I just wanted to point towards future enhancements in the model.

Maybe what I hear is more related to duplex scale implemented with tunable aliquots as in this Fazioli tuning example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRmk36hf40c

The sound I hear may indeed resemble more a resonating piece of metal instead of strings, but it is quite apparent in real recordings.

I used this doctored fxp ( http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...uplex).fxp ) to investigate pianoteq's duplex scale, which may make my comments clearer.

EDIT: The term aliquot is used differently in many instances. I thought it represented the metal bar around which a 4th string was looped, and that could resonate with the unstruck string, but I may be wrong...This is a bit confusing for me, not having access to a real grand piano myself.

Yes I think so. This is probably what is called a "rear duplex" where the unstruck strings are attached to the metal frame separately.

EDIT: couple of informative pictures down here :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...d/1#import

Coincidentally, the recordings I posted of the EBVT + Stopper 12ths may illustrate part of what we are talking about--at least part of what I mean: the longer, wirey sustain sound comes from a slightly lower place in the vertical sound stage. Possibly the early sound is the sound near the underside of the lid, or the sound as it moves back and forth between the lid and the soundboard, and the later wirey sound of the late decay is more the sound of the soundboard? (The main mic in the recording is under the hood.) The latter, late decay sound is lower in volume, so it's not being reflected off of the lid as much, and is more localized below the player?

Again, I don't know if this is related to the duplex scale: I'm not sure how the duplex sound contributes to the direct sound and to the soundboard sound, and to the decay stages. To all of them, of course, but I'm not sure if in equal quantities or how the sound localization for it works out.

Could it be due to the recording technique? One can get very different sounds when changing the recording devices and settings. Another thing that I am wondering concerns the effect of the hiss present in audio recordings, could it be possible that it emphasizes high frequencies? Strangely, among the many customers requirements, nobody yet has asked for adding hiss