Topic: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Hello
Comparison of my pianos:
I like them all, but maybe with you preferences?
- Krisp
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- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
I hope I posted in the right forum?
- Niclas Fogwall
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Krisp wrote:
I hope I posted in the right forum?
Yes, as it concerns a comparison. Beautiful performance by the way! Thanks for sharing.
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Niclas Fogwall wrote:
Krisp wrote:I hope I posted in the right forum?
Yes, as it concerns a comparison. Beautiful performance by the way! Thanks for sharing.
Merci !
- brundlefly
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
I always find the key and pedal/damper noises in Pianoteq too prominent when playing delicately as in this case; I would turn them all down. The Garritan CFX sounds pretty terrific. The Spitfire library not so much, weirdly 'muffled'. Of the Pianoteq's, it's a tough call between the Kawai and the Bosendorfer. I probably favor the latter, but it might depend on the listening environment. I'm listening on my laptop outputting through a Behringer UMC404HD with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro headphones - totally different from my studio monitoring setup when I'm playing/recording/mixing.
Did you freeze the mic setup on the Pianoteq models? They all sound unusually similar but maybe that's because the reverb is external in all cases so not affected as much by mic positioning. But using the same mic setup on all three might be worthwhile to eliminate variables.
Last edited by brundlefly (18-03-2025 01:00)
- Pianistically
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Krisp wrote:
Hello
Comparison of my pianos:
I like them all, but maybe with you preferences?
Malher 5th is fab . Did you use the Mercuzio arrangement?
Regarding the comparison it is really difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan .i would be interesting to mute the ambient mics in Garritan and use the same plugin for reverb and also do the same test with no reverb for all pianos ( as much as possible as even closed mics in Garritan capture some reverb )
Another comment is that the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos . The Bosendorfer has probably the most powerful bass while the Kawai has one of the best sounding undamped strings in the acoustic world.
- Pianoteqenthusiast
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Pianistically wrote:
Krisp wrote:Hello
Comparison of my pianos:
I like them all, but maybe with you preferences?
Malher 5th is fab . Did you use the Mercuzio arrangement?
Regarding the comparison it is really difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan .i would be interesting to mute the ambient mics in Garritan and use the same plugin for reverb and also do the same test with no reverb for all pianos ( as much as possible as even closed mics in Garritan capture some reverb )
Another comment is that the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos . The Bosendorfer has probably the most powerful bass while the Kawai has one of the best sounding undamped strings in the acoustic world.
Pianistically - I agree with you "....difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan....." and "....the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos...."
In my own simple comparison, not worth to compare with Krisp's wonderful playing, I tried to get both low and high registers playing the demo.
And I agree with Niclas too, "beautiful performance". Krisp has talent, great interpretation.
All the best, everyone,
Stig
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
brundlefly wrote:
I always find the key and pedal/damper noises in Pianoteq too prominent when playing delicately as in this case; I would turn them all down. The Garritan CFX sounds pretty terrific. The Spitfire library not so much, weirdly 'muffled'. Of the Pianoteq's, it's a tough call between the Kawai and the Bosendorfer. I probably favor the latter, but it might depend on the listening environment. I'm listening on my laptop outputting through a Behringer UMC404HD with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro headphones - totally different from my studio monitoring setup when I'm playing/recording/mixing.
Did you freeze the mic setup on the Pianoteq models? They all sound unusually similar but maybe that's because the reverb is external in all cases so not affected as much by mic positioning. But using the same mic setup on all three might be worthwhile to eliminate variables.
Nice listening environment. The DT770 (which I know well) have both a great bass depth and a lot of detail in the treble. I therefore have no doubt that you can judge this test with all the keys in hand (Behringer converters, although not the most expensive on the market, are quite capable of returning the signal correctly). I use this headset for my sound recordings on the go.
Indeed, I should have lowered the sound of the pedalboard under pianoteq. Thank you for this observation. I think this point appears to you all the more marked as your 770 are particularly reactive in this frequency area.
Regarding the reverb, I hesitated to use that of the pianoteq plugin, which is already very simple and functional. However, I opted for a total deactivation of reverb and delay to leave only Seventh heaven pro, which offers even more qualitative reverbs, and close to the realism of that of a sampled piano. Noted all the same that I opted for a reverb evoking a medium room, close in the spirit of the BBC space where the Garritan is captured.
Again, the parameters are multiple and not linear, so it would be illusory to try to make the sound spaces coincide exactly.
Basically, I'm a little at the bisector of an intention of similarity and an intention to "sound good" despite the differences.
Regarding the microphone seats (which are a little weak point in the Pianoteq interface) I used exactly the same configuration for the 3 P8 pianos. that is to say Blümlein from U87 and couple from DPA4007 nearby. So from this point of view, it matches.
Thank you for your comment.
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Pianistically wrote:
Krisp wrote:Hello
Comparison of my pianos:
I like them all, but maybe with you preferences?
Malher 5th is fab . Did you use the Mercuzio arrangement?
Regarding the comparison it is really difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan .i would be interesting to mute the ambient mics in Garritan and use the same plugin for reverb and also do the same test with no reverb for all pianos ( as much as possible as even closed mics in Garritan capture some reverb )
Another comment is that the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos . The Bosendorfer has probably the most powerful bass while the Kawai has one of the best sounding undamped strings in the acoustic world.
Hello and thank you.
I disabled the plugin reverb in Garritan but did not cut the offset samples to have a dry sound (which is possible and would have allowed, you are right, to use the same reverb). So the reverb heard here is that of Abbey natural road.
For a very different piano playing, much more dynamic with more treble and bass, I also recorded this comparison (PT8 Shigeru VS Garritan):
https://youtu.be/VTkD3RWY8K8?si=rVP87A2nyd-Le6LI
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:
Pianistically wrote:Krisp wrote:Hello
Comparison of my pianos:
I like them all, but maybe with you preferences?
Malher 5th is fab . Did you use the Mercuzio arrangement?
Regarding the comparison it is really difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan .i would be interesting to mute the ambient mics in Garritan and use the same plugin for reverb and also do the same test with no reverb for all pianos ( as much as possible as even closed mics in Garritan capture some reverb )
Another comment is that the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos . The Bosendorfer has probably the most powerful bass while the Kawai has one of the best sounding undamped strings in the acoustic world.
Pianistically - I agree with you "....difficult to compare because the pianos are all different therefore the comparison is biased due to personal preference and because you use an external reverb plugin for pianoteq and the natural abbeys road studio 1 captured by the ambient mics of Garritan....." and "....the range is very limited to mid and low mid register and doesn’t hit the upper register and very low portion of the pianos...."
In my own simple comparison, not worth to compare with Krisp's wonderful playing, I tried to get both low and high registers playing the demo.
And I agree with Niclas too, "beautiful performance". Krisp has talent, great interpretation.
All the best, everyone,
Stig
Hey, Thank you very much.
Glad to read that you appreciate this comparison despite its imperfections...
I admit that I had a lot of scruples to use this absolutely magical music for a simple "geek" technical comparison... I hope Mahler's soul forgives me.
I initially wanted to take over an old piano piece and then string accompaniment also posted on my channel, a lullaby "drapé de nuit", but unfortunately, I lost the session under Reaper. So as the adagietto score was on my desk, I decided to use it... (Moreover, for this lullaby, it was the Bösen of Pianoteq that I had chosen in the YT video).
Regarding the arrangement, difficult to say, it was the "piano for rehearsal" part that was integrated into my choral score.
As a professional singer, I recently had the pleasure of singing this transcription with a French ensemble of which it is a bit the spearhead. And it's a very big emotion... Even if I always prefer to hear it on the strings. (as long as a microphone is not hidden in the harp, as in the Bernstein version)...
Last edited by Krisp (18-03-2025 17:27)
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Very very important when you listen to Youtube for classics, but you probably already know that: disable Stable Volume... Otherwise the compression is terrible.
- dansatosan
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Krisp wrote:
brundlefly wrote:I always find the key and pedal/damper noises in Pianoteq too prominent when playing delicately as in this case; I would turn them all down. The Garritan CFX sounds pretty terrific. The Spitfire library not so much, weirdly 'muffled'. Of the Pianoteq's, it's a tough call between the Kawai and the Bosendorfer. I probably favor the latter, but it might depend on the listening environment. I'm listening on my laptop outputting through a Behringer UMC404HD with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro headphones - totally different from my studio monitoring setup when I'm playing/recording/mixing.
Did you freeze the mic setup on the Pianoteq models? They all sound unusually similar but maybe that's because the reverb is external in all cases so not affected as much by mic positioning. But using the same mic setup on all three might be worthwhile to eliminate variables.
Nice listening environment. The DT770 (which I know well) have both a great bass depth and a lot of detail in the treble. I therefore have no doubt that you can judge this test with all the keys in hand (Behringer converters, although not the most expensive on the market, are quite capable of returning the signal correctly). I use this headset for my sound recordings on the go.
Indeed, I should have lowered the sound of the pedalboard under pianoteq. Thank you for this observation. I think this point appears to you all the more marked as your 770 are particularly reactive in this frequency area.
Regarding the reverb, I hesitated to use that of the pianoteq plugin, which is already very simple and functional. However, I opted for a total deactivation of reverb and delay to leave only Seventh heaven pro, which offers even more qualitative reverbs, and close to the realism of that of a sampled piano. Noted all the same that I opted for a reverb evoking a medium room, close in the spirit of the BBC space where the Garritan is captured.
Again, the parameters are multiple and not linear, so it would be illusory to try to make the sound spaces coincide exactly.
Basically, I'm a little at the bisector of an intention of similarity and an intention to "sound good" despite the differences.
Regarding the microphone seats (which are a little weak point in the Pianoteq interface) I used exactly the same configuration for the 3 P8 pianos. that is to say Blümlein from U87 and couple from DPA4007 nearby. So from this point of view, it matches.
Thank you for your comment.
Hi Krisp - I think it sounds wonderful and my favorites were the Steinway and Kawai. I'm currently trying to record a few things with Pianoteq and I was wondering if you could help me with the microphone settings. Yours sounds beautifully balanced and I'm not sure I'm getting such good results. As a side note, I do have Reverberate 3 and Cinematic Rooms Pro, so I can fiddle with those later, too. Thank you in advance for any advice!
- Krisp
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
dansatosan wrote:
Krisp wrote:brundlefly wrote:I always find the key and pedal/damper noises in Pianoteq too prominent when playing delicately as in this case; I would turn them all down. The Garritan CFX sounds pretty terrific. The Spitfire library not so much, weirdly 'muffled'. Of the Pianoteq's, it's a tough call between the Kawai and the Bosendorfer. I probably favor the latter, but it might depend on the listening environment. I'm listening on my laptop outputting through a Behringer UMC404HD with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro headphones - totally different from my studio monitoring setup when I'm playing/recording/mixing.
Did you freeze the mic setup on the Pianoteq models? They all sound unusually similar but maybe that's because the reverb is external in all cases so not affected as much by mic positioning. But using the same mic setup on all three might be worthwhile to eliminate variables.
Nice listening environment. The DT770 (which I know well) have both a great bass depth and a lot of detail in the treble. I therefore have no doubt that you can judge this test with all the keys in hand (Behringer converters, although not the most expensive on the market, are quite capable of returning the signal correctly). I use this headset for my sound recordings on the go.
Indeed, I should have lowered the sound of the pedalboard under pianoteq. Thank you for this observation. I think this point appears to you all the more marked as your 770 are particularly reactive in this frequency area.
Regarding the reverb, I hesitated to use that of the pianoteq plugin, which is already very simple and functional. However, I opted for a total deactivation of reverb and delay to leave only Seventh heaven pro, which offers even more qualitative reverbs, and close to the realism of that of a sampled piano. Noted all the same that I opted for a reverb evoking a medium room, close in the spirit of the BBC space where the Garritan is captured.
Again, the parameters are multiple and not linear, so it would be illusory to try to make the sound spaces coincide exactly.
Basically, I'm a little at the bisector of an intention of similarity and an intention to "sound good" despite the differences.
Regarding the microphone seats (which are a little weak point in the Pianoteq interface) I used exactly the same configuration for the 3 P8 pianos. that is to say Blümlein from U87 and couple from DPA4007 nearby. So from this point of view, it matches.
Thank you for your comment.
Hi Krisp - I think it sounds wonderful and my favorites were the Steinway and Kawai. I'm currently trying to record a few things with Pianoteq and I was wondering if you could help me with the microphone settings. Yours sounds beautifully balanced and I'm not sure I'm getting such good results. As a side note, I do have Reverberate 3 and Cinematic Rooms Pro, so I can fiddle with those later, too. Thank you in advance for any advice!
Hello, it's too much honor.
The Shigeru Kawai sounds even better with the placement of preset microphones: classical recording.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rsrerxx7...6&dl=0
For my recordings, I usually use the "moderately fast" speed. To do with your keyboard because it depends a lot on the master keyboard or the digital piano. In any case, here, it allows me to have an overall less aggressive touch.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/j03nf4wz...g&dl=0
Most of the time, I disable EQ and reverb as well as integrated limiters and compressors, preferring my tools (plugin or hardware).
But here, for the Steinway, I still left the EQ of the Steinway classical NY:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/s3ozodik...q&dl=0
Otherwise, I really like to use Pultec-type EQs.
The reverb is therefore Seventh Heaven, but before I also had Reverberate 3 which is fantastic (with the Add On of M7 IRs which are free it seems to me on the Liquid Sonic website.
I used the North or East Church reverberation a lot in Reverberate's M7 preset.
I guess we can go even further with Cinematic that I don't know but which is even more appetizing than Seventh Heaven pro it seems to me.
In any case, it seems that you preferred the two most opposite pianos I have: the Steinway NY which is of considerable medium heat and the Shigeru Kawai which is a little more austere but which I love for this kind of fragile finesse very very very pretty and moving, although a little more nasal than the Steinway or the Bösen.
I know that some Pianoteq specialists can go much further than me in settings and finally I'm satisfied with fairly simple things.
As for the microphone interface, however, I find it very perfectible. For example, I tried to set a personal preset with a couple of MK2 Schoeps, or MK4 or AKG414, which are all microphones that I know and own, but the handling is very frustrating. Volume adjustments affecting panning are impractical, the distance compensation system is not very readable, and I find the influence quite strange sometimes compared to real life.
Obviously, I find the factory settings often better than my attempts. I hope that this point can be improved in the future for a simpler and more realistic handling.
The fact also of not having a real room, but a kind of theoretical free field, gives us an image that is quite difficult to understand to confront it with the reality of a capture...
- brundlefly
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Krisp wrote:
The DT770 (which I know well) have both a great bass depth and a lot of detail in the treble. I therefore have no doubt that you can judge this test with all the keys in hand (Behringer converters, although not the most expensive on the market, are quite capable of returning the signal correctly). I use this headset for my sound recordings on the go.
Yes, I like the DT770s. I just replaced an ancient pair with a new B-stock pair direct from Beyerdynamic for just $125. Can't beat 'em for the price. The Behringer interface is also new. It replaced an aging Roland Duo-Capture for casual work I do on the laptop because I needed another I/O pair. I've been quite satisfied with it except that the RTL is a little variable which makes it impossible to get consistent sample-accurate record latency compensation which is a bit of a bummer. But the driver is otherwise very solid, and the sound is good with a more powerful heaphone output than the Roland.
- dansatosan
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Re: Pianoteq VS Garritan VS BBCSO pro. Mahler Adagietto Transcription
Krisp wrote:
dansatosan wrote:Krisp wrote:Nice listening environment. The DT770 (which I know well) have both a great bass depth and a lot of detail in the treble. I therefore have no doubt that you can judge this test with all the keys in hand (Behringer converters, although not the most expensive on the market, are quite capable of returning the signal correctly). I use this headset for my sound recordings on the go.
Indeed, I should have lowered the sound of the pedalboard under pianoteq. Thank you for this observation. I think this point appears to you all the more marked as your 770 are particularly reactive in this frequency area.
Regarding the reverb, I hesitated to use that of the pianoteq plugin, which is already very simple and functional. However, I opted for a total deactivation of reverb and delay to leave only Seventh heaven pro, which offers even more qualitative reverbs, and close to the realism of that of a sampled piano. Noted all the same that I opted for a reverb evoking a medium room, close in the spirit of the BBC space where the Garritan is captured.
Again, the parameters are multiple and not linear, so it would be illusory to try to make the sound spaces coincide exactly.
Basically, I'm a little at the bisector of an intention of similarity and an intention to "sound good" despite the differences.
Regarding the microphone seats (which are a little weak point in the Pianoteq interface) I used exactly the same configuration for the 3 P8 pianos. that is to say Blümlein from U87 and couple from DPA4007 nearby. So from this point of view, it matches.
Thank you for your comment.
Hi Krisp - I think it sounds wonderful and my favorites were the Steinway and Kawai. I'm currently trying to record a few things with Pianoteq and I was wondering if you could help me with the microphone settings. Yours sounds beautifully balanced and I'm not sure I'm getting such good results. As a side note, I do have Reverberate 3 and Cinematic Rooms Pro, so I can fiddle with those later, too. Thank you in advance for any advice!
Hello, it's too much honor.
The Shigeru Kawai sounds even better with the placement of preset microphones: classical recording.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rsrerxx7...6&dl=0
For my recordings, I usually use the "moderately fast" speed. To do with your keyboard because it depends a lot on the master keyboard or the digital piano. In any case, here, it allows me to have an overall less aggressive touch.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/j03nf4wz...g&dl=0
Most of the time, I disable EQ and reverb as well as integrated limiters and compressors, preferring my tools (plugin or hardware).
But here, for the Steinway, I still left the EQ of the Steinway classical NY:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/s3ozodik...q&dl=0
Otherwise, I really like to use Pultec-type EQs.
The reverb is therefore Seventh Heaven, but before I also had Reverberate 3 which is fantastic (with the Add On of M7 IRs which are free it seems to me on the Liquid Sonic website.
I used the North or East Church reverberation a lot in Reverberate's M7 preset.
I guess we can go even further with Cinematic that I don't know but which is even more appetizing than Seventh Heaven pro it seems to me.
In any case, it seems that you preferred the two most opposite pianos I have: the Steinway NY which is of considerable medium heat and the Shigeru Kawai which is a little more austere but which I love for this kind of fragile finesse very very very pretty and moving, although a little more nasal than the Steinway or the Bösen.
I know that some Pianoteq specialists can go much further than me in settings and finally I'm satisfied with fairly simple things.
As for the microphone interface, however, I find it very perfectible. For example, I tried to set a personal preset with a couple of MK2 Schoeps, or MK4 or AKG414, which are all microphones that I know and own, but the handling is very frustrating. Volume adjustments affecting panning are impractical, the distance compensation system is not very readable, and I find the influence quite strange sometimes compared to real life.
Obviously, I find the factory settings often better than my attempts. I hope that this point can be improved in the future for a simpler and more realistic handling.
The fact also of not having a real room, but a kind of theoretical free field, gives us an image that is quite difficult to understand to confront it with the reality of a capture...
Thank you very much! It's super helpful to see and yes, it's strange how the simplest setup seems to work best in this program. I've tried set-ups like the Decca tail with omnis or OCCO arrays within Pianoteq, and it really doesn't behave in a manner that I'm accustomed to in real life. Anyhow, many thanks again for your response, and I will try it out in my next recording session!