Yamaha CP33

I'll get the ball rolling!

setup up your CP33 as obove

in pianoteq, just load the default C3 Solo Record preset (no alterations whatsoever)

play

sounds good to me!

opinions?

Chris

EDIT use medium touch on keyboard

What does work well with the above velocity curve is if all other C3 Solo Recording defaults are preserved and reverb changed to 'Concert Audience.'

Haven't forgotten demo! Will post it soon.

Chris

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...10%201.mp3

above is a demo of the following settings...

keyboard: 'Hard Touch' setting
                 'Two' instrument presets enabled (any two)

Pianoteq: 'C3 Solo Recording' preset
                 Velocity = [10, 95, 105, 116, 127; 0, 105, 116, 123, 127]
                'Concert Audience' reverb

Comments?

Chris

This is the velocity curve Gilles uses with his Yamaha P80, very similar to one of my previous velocity curve attempts for the CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 0, 6, 121, 127, 127]

I have altered it very slightly for the CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 0, 6, 116, 124, 127]

I find that on the CP33 using C3 Solo Recording preset, this particular velocity curve works best with 'Electric Piano 1' instrument and 'soft touch' presets enabled. Also enable 'Level Compensation' in Pianoteq.

Let me know what you guys think! Constructive criticism more than welcome! Feedback coveted! ethany? mooks? sigcarunchio?

As Requested by Ethan

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...032010.fxp

let me know your opinions

regards

Chris

EDIT: IMPORTANT

Set your keyboard touch to 'soft' and the instrument preset of your keyboard to 'Electric Piano 1'

I like where this is going. I've never really experimented with making a curve like that for the top end, but I really like the playablility. I'm not so sure about the bottom end. I think it clamps too aggressively to zero. I tried a small mod which I think I prefer:

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 4, 13, 116, 124, 127]

Now, you talk about using EP on soft setting. Are you sure the instrument setting makes a difference? I can't hear it.

Anyway, as I'm trained as a physicist, I thought it would be fun to try and measure things more scientifically. I came up with a way of approximately measuring the actual key velocity.

As shown in the picture above, I stick a microphone next to a key (middle C) and hit it with the end of a pen at different speeds. The lip of the key hits a small stack of coins when it reaches the key bed. I thus record two clicks: one from the pen and the other from the coins.

I measure the number of samples between the clicks, and knowing the key travel (about 1cm), I can calculate the average velocity as travelDistance*sampleRate/samplesBetweenClicks.

Here are my results for Grand Piano 1:

I spent most time on the medium setting. There might be deviation from a smooth curve at the bottom end, but it's more likely just measurement bias - those low velocities are very hard to control. The soft curve is for GP1, but I've also draw in EP1 points as crosses. These seem to follow exactly the same curve as GP1.

Anyway, from this I think it's clear that it's possible to get the full range of midi values out of all three touch settings, and that the hard setting gives the most dynamic range. It should be possible to mimic the soft and medium settings in the Pianoteq velocity curve if the CP33 is set to hard.

I'm going to experiment with converting my current curve for use with medium touch, as I think that would be a better "default" state.

WOW!

You've been busy!

I do think it's a good idea of yours to use medium touch and adapt the curve. How would you,as a physicist, go about matching the touch of the CP33 to that of a real piano? I think iit's great that you are contributing scientifically to these velocity curve studies. I know that many on this forum have difficulty going from digital piano to real concert grand simply because of the difference in touch/velocity curve of the two. If we can master this, it will make all the difference to the integration of our keyboards with pianoteq. Obviously, to get the best out of pianoteq, we must have an optimum curve.

It is great to have you onboard Mooks!

keep posting your findings,

regards,

Chris.

Velocity = [0, 12, 25, 37, 91, 102, 114, 127; 0, 0, 8, 21, 105, 117, 124, 127]

with first point at 12, 0 to imitate a real piano when played very very softly, not enough for the hammer to hit the string(s)

Velocity = [0, 12, 24, 78, 96, 112, 127; 0, 0, 10, 94, 114, 124, 127]

a tidier version of the medium touch, initial silence curve (based on Mooks medium touch curve)

there is a certain feel you get when playing a realistic velocity curve. It is hard to describe, but some of you understand what I'm saying. I tend to set the intial part of the curve (ppp +) first. Then I set the fff - part of the curve. After that, I move the lowest control point on the upper curve slightly left/right to see whereabouts I get the best 'feel' when playing. When I have found that place, I make any smoothing alterations to the whole curve.

Chris

p.s. Mooks, you're doing a great job!

EDIT: I find this curve works particularly well with default K1 Solo Recording preset with level compensation enabled and concert audience reverb.Also enable the 'master' button on the keyboard so that if there is any difference in velocity curves between instrument presets, they will be overridden (that's my theory anyway!).

Another use for a pile of spare change:

I recorded some weights for my CP33 a/b/c:
a) Key starts to move down
b) Key fully down
c) Key prevented from returning fully upwards

Lowest note: 90/130/60g
Highest note:  70/80/40g

Mooks, I've just looked back over these posts and realize the above velocity curve is yours! Apologies for not twigging sooner.

How do you find the playability of this curve? As you say, it reaches 127 very early. As all three touch settings on the CP33 are able to reach 127, would it make more sense to use a touch setting that allows us to create a velocity curve that ends at 127;127?

As to your comments regarding expressivity vs. authenticity, I do think you make a valid distinction between the two. Therefore, let us work to create for the CP33;

a. an authentic 'piano' curve/touch

b. an optimum expression curve/touch

let me know your opinion

Chris

hey folks,

apologies for being absent from this AMAZING discussion.  ironically, frustration with the curve was one of the reasons why i haven't spent much time on my pianoteq with my CP33.  i've enjoyed being able to sit down at an acoustic and "just play"

i love where this discussion is going, and promise to contribute some in the near future...life is very crazy for me right now, though.

at least, i wanted to say THANK YOU for getting this discussion going and participating with seriousness, enthusiasm and dedication!!

ethan

It has been some time since I (and anyone else) posted on this thread. I have just re-read the whole thread and have enjoyed doing so.

One thing I have realised of late is this, Volume is also vitally important when trying to get an optimum 'feel'!

There is a 'sweet spot' at which the feel of the instrument is just right. It is amazing how our brains work in relation to to touch and sound. Most of us are familiar with the fact that our minds can 'play tricks on us'. What you hear when you play Pianoteq on any keyboard directly affects your perception of the touch. If the volume is lower than the 'sweet spot', the key action will be percieved as lighter. If the volume is higher than the 'sweet point', the key action will be percieved as harder.

So may I suggest, actual more honestly request, that we re-visit this topic bearing this in mind? I would very much love to continue this process until all of those involved reach the concensus that we have found the optimum velocity curve for the CP33.

Actually, maybe I should ask this, are any of the contributors to this thread using a velocity curve you are completely satisfied with? If so, I would be very interested to see, and try it for myself. I personally am still not completely satisfied that I have the optimum curve.

Shall we continue..?

Velocity = [0, 19, 35, 50, 64, 77, 92, 109, 127; 0, 11, 28, 49, 71, 94, 114, 126, 127]

(hard touch / piano 1)

.fxp in file section

Correct:
Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

First of all, I haven't found a similar curve (maybe I imagined it?!).

Secondly, I apologize for the bodged up velocity curve in the quote above! It should read - Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

Thirdly, another apology is in order as I failed to include the dynamics setting that compensates for the new curve! (although there is a posted .fxp in the files section,

And finally, the dynamics setting in the .fxp has been revised from 58 to 57. Although this is only a single digit difference, it makes all the difference to the 'feel' - one, it's easier to reach the higher velocities, and two, it is easier to accentuate the melody line.

Here are the details of the alterations to the K1 Default Solo Recording Preset;
________________________________________________________

Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

Dynamics set to '57'

Limiter set to 'Off'

(I have) Main Volume set to '-6' (adjust as to your personal preference)

Level Compensation set to 'On'

Reverb set to 'Chamber Audience' Default Preset
________________________________________________________

That's it!

Now go enjoy!

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply to this. So busy with work lately!

Sigasa, I've actually been using your curve (from post 18) for months, and have got quite used to it. I've also converged on a slightly softened and uneven version of K1 with binaural (using a head size of 21 works just right for me).

I've just tried your latest curve, and the revelation comes with using the hard touch setting. Much better ppp and pp now, and it takes a bit more effort to get fff, which is probably as it should be.

Thanks for all your patient tweaking!

Yeah, that works too. A little harder to reach the fff, which is perhaps a bit more natural.

K1 has never sounded better. It's almost like a different instrument from when I first played it. I've been very impressed by each major update of Pianoteq but getting the right velocity curve takes it up to the next level.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...eph%29.mp3 using above posts' .fxp/velocity curve

Dear all
I am new here so forgive if my question has been answered elsewhere: I cannot find it anywhere.
I just got a Yamaha CP33, and trying to get it to play velocities between 1 and 20 is impossible even on "hard" setting. Is there a way to set the keyboard to respond normally, from 1 to 128?
I hope someone can help here!
Many thanks
DM