Harsh metallic sound (Page 1 of 2)

Check if your controller is sending too high velocity values and

Try Blüthner

Firstly, I really love Pianoteq and consider it a true masterpiece of art and science. This is not a bashing topic, even if it sounded like that.

Velocity is probably not the problem. I use Kawai ES120 which you have to hit really hard on its light velocity setting to reach 127. And it shows almost linear response when I try to calibrate it.

The demos do reveal what I am talking about to some extent, but the problem with demos is that they are beautiful and the brain concentrates more on music than on the sound itself.

The trick is that my ears get tired only after some time of practicing that involves playing scales chords and similar repetitive and not so musical materials. It could be some subtle psycho-acoustic phenomenon specific to me, but it only appears while using Pianoteq, not any other real, sampled or modelled piano (Arturia). And I suspect that it is related to the way that Pianoteq models resonance and inharmonicity. So I am wondering which combination of settings, if any, can make resonances les sharp, slightly shorter and with less presence of higher harmonics.

Yes, the gentle presets are nice, too and Steinway B overall.

I like soft, dark, pianos and the Bluthner is great for modifying without losing clarity as some of the other models do. It’s become more important to me than I first imagined when I bought it as my final choice within the pro package.

Get tweaking, Ikos!

If you want a softer sound-

Use the EQs to introduce a gentle dip around the two to four kilohertz region. This is where our ears are most sensitive. You could start gently around 900 hertz or 1 kilohertz. Experiment a little.

The good thing with EQ is it is extremely powerful at shaping the sound and you can do this with all three versions.

I play softly the majority of the time and when I do get anywhere near maximum velocity, the sound my keys make to achieve that masks the attack.
Last night, just out of interest, I pinned the velocity adjuster to the ceiling.
Good grief, that’s way brighter than I thought, semi weighted synth actions would be a nightmare.

A ‘spinal tap ‘ connoisseur here

In case someone with similar problem steps on the topic, I realised that most of the harshness I perceive almost goes away if the delay of a a given preset is turned off and the reverb is set to something milder (e.g. dry room, mix down). For some models I also like to decrease resonances. With those changes, I am able to play much longer without fatigue. Apparently, the default resonances in Pianoteq are a bit too aggressive for my ear and delay and reverb amplify the undesirable ringing.

Well, some few people have a high sensibility to some few remaining characteristis o pianoteq that are not fully 100% up to the real pianos.
Today they are a minoroty, if compared to pianoteq early years. This show how far in this long road Modartt have come, refining the engine over and over.
We need these high sensible people to help spot where to focus for further improve the sound.

Sometimes I wonder if the issues about metalic and woody sounds are more about sound absorption than full sound amplification, like if many fractions of the sound was absorbed and then the remaining would be amplified & reflected, creating the woody sound.
That would be two great setting of adjustment to have available.

While the program still doesn't sound 100% realistic yet it is extremely convincing for a virtual instrument, and importantly often sounds (and feels) more like an actual instrument being played than it's sample based instrument competition - even those more expensive options in the top class.

I can see how Pianoteq is much more average laptop friendly than say the VSL Synchron pianos though, and would suit someone that has both and treats the latter as their go to.

I do think that if in the future Modartt can remove the last vestiges of any artificial elements to the sound there will still be people honestly believing that they are still there, just as I suspect people build them up in their minds to be more than they are now.
Expectation bias is hard to overcome.

I expect people will still be having a variation on this conversation in several generations time - assuming humans and the program make it that far..

I found that generally ear fatigue can be related to phasing issues in some part of the frequency spectrum.
Maybe try to “change” this phasing by moving the mics around the piano, changing speed of sound, or removing the short looped delay in the FX section.
It is sometimes an impossible task to remove completely phasing issues over the whole frequency spectrum, so the idea is to “move” the frequency where the phasing is generating pain (around 3kHz ?) to somewhere you will not notice that much.

I hope nobody take this as an offense or insinuation, but human ear can build up a lot of dried wax on canal that can cause problems to hearing, including some few buzzing or disconfort.

Such wax can't be removed in home with things like cotton swab, and  is need a doctor to help clean up.

I am a new PianoTeq "Standard" user. What I have found is that the built-in "voicing" is not that great, some range transitions aren't that good, and I might need to spend a few extra bucks trying to fix those problems with the Pro version I guess...

I've noticed the same myself and I attribute this to the acoustics in my room because my real grand piano is affected in the same range.

Due to the brightness in the upper middle-range I have adjusted my performance technique when I play in that range on the pianos and it helps substantially with the sound, however other help is needed as well by replacing curtains the with heavier ones along with placing softer furniture and arranging the piano in such a way as to remove sharp corners and hard surfaces as much as possible to stop the reflection of high frequency sounds.

That would be awesome if they can. This piano is really awesome right out of the box. I noticed too that the harshness is also affected by the humidity and atmospheric conditions in the room. On rainy more humid days, the piano sound is less harsh compared to cold dry winter days.

[I have the same negative experience especially when I get above E4.

It always sounds good but I feel almost like I am listening to a different engine sometimes. I can hear these issues naysayers have.

Much of the time to my ears it sounds incredibly natural, but occasionally on som days my ears are constantly drawn to the synthetic elements in the sound.

I think differences in pressure in my ears, perhaps when tired or relaxed concentrating on different frequencies more.

It's like the Laurel/Yanny sound test (boost the treble EQ and I heard Yanny, but not normally) and the dress that some people swear blind was blue, while others swore blind it was gold - squint and I could see either colour!

I hope this last vestige of synthetic steeliness isn't permanently baked into the Pianoteq engine sound - an inherent compromise in the program/model design efficiency?

Hopefully version 9 can actually eliminate this.
To me it seems ever since version 5 as the resolution and dynamics has consistently improved  so this harshness seems to get tweaked or shifted  rather than eradicated - as if it's moved around the frequency range, but never fully eliminated.

I don't want to exaggerate this. Pianoteq remains my favourite piano app and I love the sound - but not everything about the sound all the time.

Maybe I am asking too much?
For me the advantages significantly outweigh the disadvantages of this excellent program.

I far prefer using this over almost all of the sample based pianos. They have their own way of sounding artificial.

I'm hoping version 9 brings a serious generational boost to the fundamental elements of the engine to eliminate these concerns rather than cool  extra features and a subtle sonic improvement that some folks actually dislike and find more tiring - even if they are in the minority.

If they brought nothing at all else to the table with version 9. Not a single extra new feature, just an improvement in the realism I'm sure everyone would appreciate this much more.

I listen both through the daw and standalone. Indeed FX can skillfully mask perceived shortcomings.

I wouldn't write off the built-in FX though.

I do wonder if my expectations are entirely unreasonable, that it can never really get there, and expecting to get there at modest cost with sensible hardware requirements is asking far too much, it's possibly ungrateful? (It's born out of ignorance TBH) ; Pianoteq sounds superb already, works brilliantly on most hardware. Accept it isn't entirely real, has to make concessions blah blah..

i understand that this is a common position for many people here.  but there are at least some (certainly including me) that feel differently. 

i think they really have to have a standalone product that produces the sound they want, the sound that best captures the feeling of playing and recording exceptional pianos.  if the built-in FX is indeed the weakest link in the chain then i don't see how they can't focus on fixing it.  i don't think it makes sense from a marketing perspective.  i can't imagine that scenario at all.

for me sampled pianos are totally unplayable, full stop.  to me it feels like wiggling a corpse around.  so much ugh.  Pianoteq is the only thing i've found that feels like an actual instrument.  the sound has improved immensely over time (i started with v5), but of course there are flaws.  i think if audio experts (which i am not, not at all) are able to pinpoint this as an FX problem, then that has to be fixed.

at the end of the day i just want to sit down and play.  i don't want to deal with a DAW, i don't want to shell out money for other stuff, i just want to fire up the program i bought and really like and make music. 

sorry for the rant

This is the way to go honestly. Experiment with the EQ3, in the effect panel. I have found that my speaker system is way to heavy at around the 400-600 khz region producing a low ringing buzzy sound. I have to lower the volume quite drastically at around that region with the EQ for most piano models and presets. Then there is another region just above 1000khz that I seem to be a bit sensitive to. I have found that lowering the volym on the mid to high register in the note by note edit screen counters this region better as removing the ringing with the EQ3 makes the sound a bit dull up there and removes some complexity and character. Compression also helps a bit.

Pianoteq sounds lovely out of the box, but It needs some tweeking to fit your exact setup and preferences. Its the same with all VSTs basically.

I have tried several upright pianos and even grands that produce sounds that are very harsh to my ears so the problem exists in the real world as well.

This is essentially what was suggested in the very first response to the OP, and seconded by me a few posts later. Not a magic bullet, but always helps to take the 'edge' off of any instrument that has a typical tonal reponse to velocity.

I've been following this thread for awhile, as this is a problem that affects me too. I am confident the problem is not my room, speakers, or anything to do with my setup—it is with Pianoteq.

Downgrading to 8.1 helped only a little.

The velocity curve trick helps only a little. But we should not have to do this.

Stereophonic (my preferred modality) seems to make the harshness worse, as do any spatial effects like delay and reverb.

It is particularly bad on the Bechstein DG.

Has modartt acknowledged this issue at all?

hi planetz, what audio interface are you using, and amp speakers (placement also)?

I can play for hours with no fatigue, my basic setup is an Apogee Boom to mixer, then into a hi fi amp, and small JVC speakers placed on the floor, underneath and behind my keyboard, these are at an angle (45 degrees at a guess).

I would try the Legacy Reverb, duration max, room as it is, and default or increase the mix to what sounds best.

Nick

Yes brundlefly, there is some blocking of the sound with the keyboard, this though is not my intention here, I have the keyboard further forward to improve this. I like the way the sound is underneath the keyboard, not above. I've been using this speaker placement for about a year now without any need to change it.

Regarding the harsh tones or high frequencies, the Legacy Reverb seems to give a more overall pleasing sound, with more life also, to me anyway.

Nick

Edit, this speaker placement is suitable for passive speakers, not for powered monitors.

Hi planetz, on the back of the HS5 monitors, you can reduce the high frequencies, I would set this to minimum, also reduce the bass to see how this might sound. If practical, move your keyboard forward to increase the listening distance, I'm 4 feet+ away on my setup.
 
I think Pianoteq with no reverb might be just too dry, at least some reverb would bring the instrument to life.

I find these issues in music setups can often lead to a new and better sound, seems to be an ongoing thing for me.

Nick