Topic: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Which instrument packs would tend to work well performing live with a jazz quartet (keyboard, bass, drums, and sax or trumpet) in a noisy environment?

I'm a jazz musician but not a pianist, making a transition to a midi keyboard for live performance.  So, I'm a complete newbie regarding synthesizers, midi etc., and I'm struggling to make a good decision about which 2 instruments to pick for an initial purchase of the Stage edition.

My hesitation is this:  the K2 pack sounds relatively dry, and a bit more of a round sound (less high and low end emphasis). In my experience, I would suspect that the dry sound would have some advantage in a noisy environment, and the round sound would tend to blend more easily with other instruments, especially horns.  However, to my ears, the K2 doesn't sound natural.

My ears far prefer the sound of any of the others that are based on a specific instrument.  And reading this forum I see frequent mention of the Steinway D and Petrof packs since they each include two instruments.

Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?

Thanks,
Rik

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

rik wrote:

Which instrument packs would tend to work well performing live with a jazz quartet (keyboard, bass, drums, and sax or trumpet) in a noisy environment?

I'm a jazz musician but not a pianist, making a transition to a midi keyboard for live performance.  So, I'm a complete newbie regarding synthesizers, midi etc., and I'm struggling to make a good decision about which 2 instruments to pick for an initial purchase of the Stage edition.

My hesitation is this:  the K2 pack sounds relatively dry, and a bit more of a round sound (less high and low end emphasis). In my experience, I would suspect that the dry sound would have some advantage in a noisy environment, and the round sound would tend to blend more easily with other instruments, especially horns.  However, to my ears, the K2 doesn't sound natural.

My ears far prefer the sound of any of the others that are based on a specific instrument.  And reading this forum I see frequent mention of the Steinway D and Petrof packs since they each include two instruments.

Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?

Thanks,
Rik

I think the Blüthner is the best overall across genres, and has an extra clarity that would work well in a club. Use the demo for as long as you can and try it in a loud environment - but for me it’s been the one pack that works best.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

rik wrote:

Which instrument packs would tend to work well performing live with a jazz quartet (keyboard, bass, drums, and sax or trumpet) in a noisy environment?

I'm a jazz musician but not a pianist, making a transition to a midi keyboard for live performance.  So, I'm a complete newbie regarding synthesizers, midi etc., and I'm struggling to make a good decision about which 2 instruments to pick for an initial purchase of the Stage edition.

My hesitation is this:  the K2 pack sounds relatively dry, and a bit more of a round sound (less high and low end emphasis). In my experience, I would suspect that the dry sound would have some advantage in a noisy environment, and the round sound would tend to blend more easily with other instruments, especially horns.  However, to my ears, the K2 doesn't sound natural.

My ears far prefer the sound of any of the others that are based on a specific instrument.  And reading this forum I see frequent mention of the Steinway D and Petrof packs since they each include two instruments.

Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?

Thanks,
Rik

For your ears it seems a no brainer to simply avoid K2. Just because a lot of us like that pack doesn't mean you have to.

Plenty of presets suitable for jazz club style environments.

Up against live instruments it's important to have a sound system with enough power and loudspeaker designs that project the sound to the audience.

Compression and EQ can help make your chosen instruments cut through - also picking presets with the right reverb for the room size - and microphone positioning should help.
Obviously a real unamplified acoustic piano doesn't rely on those EQ and compression tricks - or indeed added reverb blending with a real acoustic environment.

Whatever the music the D pack is the most obvious no brainer. D has a big collection of presets because the D absolutely dominates in the classical world, high end jazz and probably features in Pop and rock too - but the Yamaha (YC5 here) also big in Pop and jazz.

I guess it depends on the type of jazz. Jazz/funk look to the electric piano collection too.
U4 for the upright old time sound.

If playing live your sound system is the most important factor.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (12-04-2024 08:22)

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

dikrek wrote:

I think the Blüthner is the best overall across genres, and has an extra clarity that would work well in a club. Use the demo for as long as you can and try it in a loud environment - but for me it’s been the one pack that works best.

Yep, the Bluthner has great clarity. The Petrofs have good mid presence and the Yamaha would also be worth considering for live use.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

The packs with more instruments are tempting but when you need a specific piano flavour you might want to consider single instruments instead. My choice would probably be focused around the Steinway B for a smaller piano which is far more clear than the K2 and eventually consider among the grands either the Bluethner or the Bechstein. Both are rich instruments but they do not sacrifice clarity and should also be suitable for smaller venues.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

rik wrote:

Which instrument packs would tend to work well performing live with a jazz quartet (keyboard, bass, drums, and sax or trumpet) in a noisy environment?

I'm a jazz musician but not a pianist, making a transition to a midi keyboard for live performance.  So, I'm a complete newbie regarding synthesizers, midi etc., and I'm struggling to make a good decision about which 2 instruments to pick for an initial purchase of the Stage edition.

My hesitation is this:  the K2 pack sounds relatively dry, and a bit more of a round sound (less high and low end emphasis). In my experience, I would suspect that the dry sound would have some advantage in a noisy environment, and the round sound would tend to blend more easily with other instruments, especially horns.  However, to my ears, the K2 doesn't sound natural.

My ears far prefer the sound of any of the others that are based on a specific instrument.  And reading this forum I see frequent mention of the Steinway D and Petrof packs since they each include two instruments.

Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?

Thanks,
Rik

out of the pianos you mentioned , the Petrof  mistral will definitely cut the mix as very dynamic and clear . Other good choices are U4 tall or U4 a la monk for more jazzy vibe .

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Irl: i guess steinway b is among the best for jazz

PT 8.2:

I like how the anton petrof really brightens up ( if you tune it like a steinway lol), and a combo might really appreciate that

HB Steinway D is the easiest to balance and there is a nice jazz ready preset in the fxp corner.

Practical advice: download the trial and run it through your speakers in whatever venue and see if you can quickly eq it.

Just another opinion, follow your experience.

Soundblaster ZXR, ASIO4ALL. 96khz, ~2ms buffer. Little to no pop/crackle on Realtime priority.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Though it sounds great too the B pack's weakness has been the limited number of presets compared to the D.

This makes it harder to recommend as an alternative for newbies, especially buying Stage which has more limited potential to tune the sound.
It's not as if we are talking quantity over quality here either.

All the modern piano models are a good recommendation though.

Obviously the OP doesn't currently like K, so at least that's ruled out.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Key Fumbler wrote:

Though it sounds great too the B pack's weakness has been the limited number of presets compared to the D.

I think the B is the most convincing model …suffers least from the FM synth-esque attack on certain notes in the middle of the keyboard.
I think the B that Modartt modelled was their own so they probably had more time to perfect it.

Yeah, it puzzles me as to why more presets have not been made for it

EDIT

I do find it to sound intrinsically warm and soft compared to the other grands so maybe not an ideal choice for competing with a band’s other instruments.

Last edited by Topher (14-04-2024 10:26)

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Topher wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Though it sounds great too the B pack's weakness has been the limited number of presets compared to the D.

Yeah, it puzzles me as to why more presets have not been made for it

EDIT

I do find it to sound intrinsically warm and soft compared to the other grands so maybe not an ideal choice for competing with a band’s other instruments.

I am surprised they haven't increased the presets for that one too, however..

The Modartt D model/s have existed a lot longer in Pianoteq than their B model so that's probably a big factor in the quantity.

I believe it's also probably the commercial reality of what they are modelling.
Sitting at the top as the flagship of the most commercially successful elite piano company for several decades the D is head and shoulders above every other piano that exists in the professional sphere, maybe all the other ones combined (they are the reigning champions in terms of marketing success) .
Watch the BBC proms or almost any classical concert venue programme and almost always you'll see the D. I noticed this with foreign news channels too showing concerts in Europe, Asia and Japan - pop and rock being more of a mixed with the big Yamahas a little more common - got a big Steinway is still a status symbol for a rock musician as it is with a classical musician. Everything else hardly gets a look in.

A while back there was a concert on a BBC programme with up and coming young classical musicians they were using a big (and beautiful sounding) top quality Yamaha at a smaller venue - might have been a CFX.
It was probably the house piano.

The B isn't the flagship so like the big Yams it's probably seen as something for smaller venues, teaching purposes, smaller (still large) homes.

Hell I just look at a CGI rendered copy on a flat screen and play those with a cheap Casio!
They all sound great, they're all outside my budget and I'm not worthy of any of them anyway!

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Key Fumbler wrote:
Topher wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Though it sounds great too the B pack's weakness has been the limited number of presets compared to the D.

Yeah, it puzzles me as to why more presets have not been made for it

EDIT

I do find it to sound intrinsically warm and soft compared to the other grands so maybe not an ideal choice for competing with a band’s other instruments.

I am surprised they haven't increased the presets for that one too, however..

The Modartt D model/s have existed a lot longer in Pianoteq than their B model so that's probably a big factor in the quantity.

I believe it's also probably the commercial reality of what they are modelling.
Sitting at the top as the flagship of the most commercially successful elite piano company for several decades the D is head and shoulders above every other piano that exists in the professional sphere, maybe all the other ones combined (they are the reigning champions in terms of marketing success) .
Watch the BBC proms or almost any classical concert venue programme and almost always you'll see the D. I noticed this with foreign news channels too showing concerts in Europe, Asia and Japan - pop and rock being more of a mixed with the big Yamahas a little more common - got a big Steinway is still a status symbol for a rock musician as it is with a classical musician. Everything else hardly gets a look in.

A while back there was a concert on a BBC programme with up and coming young classical musicians they were using a big (and beautiful sounding) top quality Yamaha at a smaller venue - might have been a CFX.
It was probably the house piano.

The B isn't the flagship so like the big Yams it's probably seen as something for smaller venues, teaching purposes, smaller (still large) homes.

Hell I just look at a CGI rendered copy on a flat screen and play those with a cheap Casio!
They all sound great, they're all outside my budget and I'm not worthy of any of them anyway!

I totally ignore what pianos the models are supposed to mimic. That’s the road to confirmation bias.

Try the demo, play the same songs via different models, and pick what sounds best for your purposes. Ignore the model names.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

dikrek wrote:

I totally ignore what pianos the models are supposed to mimic. That’s the road to confirmation bias.

Try the demo, play the same songs via different models, and pick what sounds best for your purposes. Ignore the model names.

Yes,
I like that attitude in principle. They are all good - it's hard to go wrong frankly.

I do find the D models remarkably accurate - albeit only to my limited experience of many recordings of the Ds, so proper pianists with a lifetime of experience with the real thing can justifiably roll their eyes at my comments for all I know.

I feel that the range of tonality or character in the D models is greater than all the other models, mirroring what I hear on recordings of the real deal.
This could have it's pros and cons.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Key Fumbler wrote:

I am surprised they haven't increased the presets for that one too, however..

The Modartt D model/s have existed a lot longer in Pianoteq than their B model so that's probably a big factor in the quantity.

I believe it's also probably the commercial reality of what they are modelling.
Sitting at the top as the flagship of the most commercially successful elite piano company for several decades the D is head and shoulders above every other piano that exists in the professional sphere, maybe all the other ones combined (they are the reigning champions in terms of marketing success) .
Watch the BBC proms or almost any classical concert venue programme and almost always you'll see the D. I noticed this with foreign news channels too showing concerts in Europe, Asia and Japan - pop and rock being more of a mixed with the big Yamahas a little more common - got a big Steinway is still a status symbol for a rock musician as it is with a classical musician. Everything else hardly gets a look in.

A while back there was a concert on a BBC programme with up and coming young classical musicians they were using a big (and beautiful sounding) top quality Yamaha at a smaller venue - might have been a CFX.
It was probably the house piano.

The B isn't the flagship so like the big Yams it's probably seen as something for smaller venues, teaching purposes, smaller (still large) homes.

Hell I just look at a CGI rendered copy on a flat screen and play those with a cheap Casio!
They all sound great, they're all outside my budget and I'm not worthy of any of them anyway!

The ubiquity of the D in a certain type of prestige venue is a tad clichéd.

I realised that every digital piano product I’ve owned, prior to Pianoteq, was based on a sampled D, not by design, just a symptom of its reverence.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

Key Fumbler wrote:
dikrek wrote:

I totally ignore what pianos the models are supposed to mimic. That’s the road to confirmation bias.

Try the demo, play the same songs via different models, and pick what sounds best for your purposes. Ignore the model names.

Yes,
I like that attitude in principle. They are all good - it's hard to go wrong frankly.

I do find the D models remarkably accurate - albeit only to my limited experience of many recordings of the Ds, so proper pianists with a lifetime of experience with the real thing can justifiably roll their eyes at my comments for all I know.

I feel that the range of tonality or character in the D models is greater than all the other models, mirroring what I hear on recordings of the real deal.
This could have it's pros and cons.

For most stuff I’ve found Blüthner to just be clearer and more sonorous. I think it’s overall their best one. I have NO idea if it’s close at all to the real one and I don’t care

Check some of what I posted here

https://gearspace.com/board/product-ale...8-a-6.html

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

dikrek wrote:

For most stuff I’ve found Blüthner to just be clearer and more sonorous. I think it’s overall their best one. I have NO idea if it’s close at all to the real one and I don’t care

The Blüthner was my favourite during the version 5 era. It was a very different sound then - if memory serves..

I will check out those tracks.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

I listened to Dikrek's recordings but I am not converted. I like all the modern grand sounds with the D probably most of all - but even in that probably not able to rely on my own current perceived favourites as it's not a strong bias.
D only really became my (slight) favourite I think with version 8. It's not been all the time.
To be fair the B has more "factory" presets than some of the other modern grands now, it's just that compared to the Ds it's a pretty thin collection.

When we are considering our favourite pianos perplexed by such varying opinions one thing to bear in mind is how different people listen to these pianos, especially playback levels and how this changes how we perceive the sound:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Radical differences in playback equipment play a huge part too, and the room acoustics or the shape of the head wearing headphones - and headphones themselves can vary significantly, but relatively little compared to speakers in a room.

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

I'd keep an open mind for a while first about what piano you may end up choosing. Probably the best advice I'd likely give, would be to just soak them each in, until you kind of fall in love with a certain something which reveals itself to you over that time (certain pianos just invoke a kind of artistic "Aah! that's the gear!".

Sometimes, you just load a piano/preset and it inspires something immediately. Definitely worth clicking through a selection of pianos for a while, taking your time searching for how they each make you feel as you improvize.

Probably any piano could be worked into a given live environment (basics like some EQ or compression to lift the dynamic floor higher up in a certain way might be useful in a noisy venue).

If your focus is 'listener experience', it could take you a long way if going with the Steinway B (ubiquitous in recordings etc.. which, to me, isn't making a cookie-cut choice or so much about kind of joining into a hive-mind pattern.. but just outputting a tonal range which listeners feel instantly "OK" with, good 'smoky' flair to it, very adjustable and like already mentioned it has a wealth of presets to get your creative direction nailed down quickly - and I really do love it even before thinking about the other aspects).

The Steinway D also being really well known is in similar scope - but IDK the B probably wins, just imho, for a live Jazz club, maybe.. unless you know you want to hit its specific vibe. All could be good though. I guess most of this is said as it is because you maybe havn't yet set a specific opinion.. but mixing some of column A with column B (what you love to hear + what listeners feel is cool) can't hurt - but in the end, that is going to be up to you

Agree with so much of the above really good commentary and advice - and I do think the Bluthner still has a lot of charm.. but wow, so difficult to choose one alone.. the Mistral to me is probably currently a top of the line choice too.. just very rich, responsive, acoustically interesting yet controlled, can be stately and loosened up with some extra unison width etc. in a vivid way.. but IDK, for sure maybe the Grotrian would suit too? That has some nice bass and interesting top end tones.. For whatever the level of hype/drama in the set, there's sure to be a piano which might peak through - but time spent kind of trying them out would hopefully be the kicker. Working out how you'd like to enhance your choice with some tweaks could be pretty fun - but defaults are so good you might just use one of those instead of becoming overly zoomed in on tweaking things.

Whichever you choose - hope it goes great for you!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

rik wrote:

Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?
Rik

Specifically I meant the James Farber. Add to the list: the Digital grand (DG) is very smooth now too. As others say, best chance at success before buying is to use a demo version if can and see what comes closest to meeting your needs in the environment.

Soundblaster ZXR, ASIO4ALL. 96khz, ~2ms buffer. Little to no pop/crackle on Realtime priority.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq

Re: suggested packs for live jazz performance

rik wrote:

Which instrument packs would tend to work well performing live with a jazz quartet (keyboard, bass, drums, and sax or trumpet) in a noisy environment?
...
Does anyone have suggestions about which instruments they find work well in a club environment, subject to some crowd noise, and might blend well with horns?

Thanks,
Rik

I see you have received a lot of good advice already. I'm a jazz pianist and I gig with a small group, usually a quintet. I have Studio so I have everything, and occasionally experiment. But mostly I use two pianos: 1) Anton Petrof 275 (the basic one--with reverb turned off because the room provides that). I might add a little eq or compression. I also set the condition to something above mint, maybe 10-15% up, which I think gives a fuller sound.
2) is the rhodes MK1 electric, I usually use the bark preset and I'll turn off delay and turn on chorus.

If I set A and B to these two keyboards, and switch back and forth as needed depending on the tunes, I don't have to mess with settings much.

There are so many to choose from and many other options I'm sure would satisfy me, but playing on a gig is so much different that sitting at home with headphones. I know you know this, being a jazz musician. Really I care little on the gig for the specific nuance of the sound--my main concern is that I can hear myself! So cutting through the mix is number 1. I always bring a QSC 8.2 speaker that I use for a personal monitor (unless the place I'm playing provides one), setting it right next to me so I can boost myself in the mix a bit (and play through PA as my second line out). Stereo doesn't really work in these type of venues, so I don't worry about that. I am on the fence about setting the sound  to stereophonic vs monophonic--I can't hear much difference live.

At home I love all the Pianoteq sounds, which is why I sprang for studio (purchased a little at a time, until Modartt offered me a great deal to fill in the rest). But live, I don't have much time to spend fiddling with settings, and we don't plan out all our tunes in advance so I just have to be able do things on the fly.