Topic by ryguy76

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Topic: Piano newb seeking guidance

Hi all,

I’ve decided that it’s not too late to learn piano at 47 amd I’ve managed to find myself quite interested in the Pianoteq app.  I’m no stranger to music, been playing guitar for 30+ years, but all self taught.  I’ve owned and operated a recording studio so was familiar with VST’s etc.

I bought my kids a cheap Casio piano for Christmas a few years back but they have never been interested so decided I’d relocate it into my space and learn to play correctly.  I dabble and can fool people into thinking I know what I’m doing but I really don’t.  I want to learn from the ground up, get comfortable with reading music and mainly play classical pieces so we’ll see how it goes.

The problem I was facing is while the action on this Casio isn’t half bad, the internal sounds and speakers are god awful.  I used to use 4Front True Piano for recording MIDI piano in my studio but really didn’t want to have to have a computer setup near the piano.

So stumbled upon Pianoteq and have it currently running off my iMac while I wait for an adapter but the plan is to move it to my iPad.

I’ve tested the iOS app via the included demo and my iPad ran it seemingly decently so hope once I can control it via MIDI, it works as well as the iMac version.  Does anyone notice a sonic difference between the PC version vs the iOS version? 

I’m going to get the Stage version and have been demoing all the models endlessly and man is it tough to pick 2!

Wondering what your thoughts are on my thinking there.

I am pretty set in the first being the Steingraeber, but the 2nd choice is proving to be more difficult.

I have it narrowed down to the 2 Petrof models or the Blüthner.  I also find myself dipping back into the K2 model too.

Would you go Steingraeber and Petrofs or Steingraeber and Blüthner?

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

Either of your suggestions will be fine. The Petrof pack having two great models is a safer bet perhaps?

Mainly you should listen and decide for yourself. My current favourite can change on a daily basis!

The different platform versions should sound absolutely identical sonically.

The Steinway D and Petrof packs both contain two piano models.
The free kivir pack contains several more lovely models. The CP80 sounds lovely on some Pop and rock - though the kind of effects that we can use to make it sound great on a lot of material also work well on the traditional acoustic piano models.

D is by a long stretch the king of the concert hall, it's not even close, they absolutely dominate the classical world.
On the other hand the B model has a more gentle sound for regular practice..
The problem is they all sound excellent -Steingraeber, Petrof neither would be a mistake. I like the K and Grotrian too.  I probably particularly liked the Bluthner back when it was Pianoteq version 5 as it sounded more resonant than the other models at the time.  The way they've all been upgraded through improvements to the program now it's just another good piano model in the list.

No one can decide for you. Take your time.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (20-12-2023 11:40)

Reply by ryguy76

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

Key Fumbler wrote:

Either of your suggestions will be fine. The Petrof pack having two great models is a safer bet perhaps?

Mainly you should listen and decide for yourself. My current favourite can change on a daily basis!

The different platform versions should sound absolutely identical sonically.

The Steinway D and Petrof packs both contain two piano models.
The free kivir pack contains several more lovely models. The CP80 sounds lovely on some Pop and rock - though the kind of effects that we can use to make it sound great on a lot of material also work well on the traditional acoustic piano models.

D is by a long stretch the king of the concert hall, it's not even close, they absolutely dominate the classical world.
On the other hand the B model has a more gentle sound for regular practice..
The problem is they all sound excellent -Steingraeber, Petrof neither would be a mistake. I like the K and Grotrian too.  I probably particularly liked the Bluthner back when it was Pianoteq version 5 as it sounded more resonant than the other models at the time.  The way they've all been upgraded through improvements to the program now it's just another good piano model in the list.

No one can decide for you. Take your time.

Do you have any wisdom on how to best assess each model?  I’ve been trying to compare like for like by using presets that share the same name, eg Prelude presets, but then will compare the basic presets which are just the models name without any “adjectives” in the preset name.

I guess the other way of going about it for a Stage purchase would be to count the useable presets a pack provides you and not just a specific favourite preset in a pack.

True Pianos had a clear winner in their software, but all of the Pianoteq models are winners so it’s indeed no easy feat to pick 2, lol.

And last question…. Are there any digital pianos (thinking Roland or similar) that have close to comparable built in grand pianos tones that wouldn’t feel like a sonic downgrade if I decide to upgrade this Casio down the line?

Last edited by ryguy76 (21-12-2023 01:05)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Either of your suggestions will be fine. The Petrof pack having two great models is a safer bet perhaps?

Mainly you should listen and decide for yourself. My current favourite can change on a daily basis!

The different platform versions should sound absolutely identical sonically.

The Steinway D and Petrof packs both contain two piano models.
The free kivir pack contains several more lovely models. The CP80 sounds lovely on some Pop and rock - though the kind of effects that we can use to make it sound great on a lot of material also work well on the traditional acoustic piano models.

D is by a long stretch the king of the concert hall, it's not even close, they absolutely dominate the classical world.
On the other hand the B model has a more gentle sound for regular practice..
The problem is they all sound excellent -Steingraeber, Petrof neither would be a mistake. I like the K and Grotrian too.  I probably particularly liked the Bluthner back when it was Pianoteq version 5 as it sounded more resonant than the other models at the time.  The way they've all been upgraded through improvements to the program now it's just another good piano model in the list.

No one can decide for you. Take your time.

Do you have any wisdom on how to best assess each model?  I’ve been trying to compare like for like by using presets that share the same name, eg Prelude presets, but then will compare the basic presets which are just the models name without any “adjectives” in the preset name.

I guess the other way of going about it for a Stage purchase would be to count the useable presets a pack provides you and not just a specific favourite preset in a pack.

True Pianos had a clear winner in their software, but all of the Pianoteq models are winners so it’s indeed no easy feat to pick 2, lol.

And last question…. Are there any digital pianos (thinking Roland or similar) that have close to comparable built in grand pianos tones that wouldn’t feel like a sonic downgrade if I decide to upgrade this Casio down the line?

You'll need some answers from some of the more seasoned forum pianists than me if you want to compare it to much more expensive hardware pianos purely on sonic performance. I haven't been convinced from what I've heard though. Suffice to say plenty use Pianoteq with top of the range digital pianos used as a controller.

Find and download some piano midi files and listen to those while flicking through presets - when you are not examining them at your fingertips. 

Personally I would get the electric piano pack and Steinway D pack if I was starting out - I know a very different answer. Coupled to the pianos etc in freebie KIVIR that covers a lot of sounds for the beginner.

Out of your choices I would pick the Petrof pack as it's two in one pack.

Last edited by Key Fumbler (21-12-2023 01:34)

Reply by dv

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:

Do you have any wisdom on how to best assess each model?

Since you've already picked one, compare your shortlisted second ones to the one you have decided for sure and pick THE MOST DIFFERENT. I know we tend to gravitate towards THE MOST SIMILAR because, well if I like salmon I may well like tuna too. But having the most different will be better.

You can always add an instrument later, either the instrument alone or upgrading to Standard or even Pro which will come with an additional one or two. The price of the upgrades are always the difference so you won't lose any money and sometimes you gain because they have discounts.

HTH

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Either of your suggestions will be fine. The Petrof pack having two great models is a safer bet perhaps?

Mainly you should listen and decide for yourself. My current favourite can change on a daily basis!

The different platform versions should sound absolutely identical sonically.

The Steinway D and Petrof packs both contain two piano models.
The free kivir pack contains several more lovely models. The CP80 sounds lovely on some Pop and rock - though the kind of effects that we can use to make it sound great on a lot of material also work well on the traditional acoustic piano models.

D is by a long stretch the king of the concert hall, it's not even close, they absolutely dominate the classical world.
On the other hand the B model has a more gentle sound for regular practice..
The problem is they all sound excellent -Steingraeber, Petrof neither would be a mistake. I like the K and Grotrian too.  I probably particularly liked the Bluthner back when it was Pianoteq version 5 as it sounded more resonant than the other models at the time.  The way they've all been upgraded through improvements to the program now it's just another good piano model in the list.

No one can decide for you. Take your time.

Do you have any wisdom on how to best assess each model?  I’ve been trying to compare like for like by using presets that share the same name, eg Prelude presets, but then will compare the basic presets which are just the models name without any “adjectives” in the preset name.

I guess the other way of going about it for a Stage purchase would be to count the useable presets a pack provides you and not just a specific favourite preset in a pack.

True Pianos had a clear winner in their software, but all of the Pianoteq models are winners so it’s indeed no easy feat to pick 2, lol.

And last question…. Are there any digital pianos (thinking Roland or similar) that have close to comparable built in grand pianos tones that wouldn’t feel like a sonic downgrade if I decide to upgrade this Casio down the line?

No piano in any keyboard models as much as Pianoteq but for stage use most stage keyboards are more than enough (as you can see given their popularity).

If I were you I’d not focus so much on how many models come with each pack.

For example with the Petrofs if you only like the larger one, there’s no point thinking about the second one.

Or maybe you like Blüthner more even though it’s just a single model.

My advice:

Use all the sound systems you’re likely to use, try the different modes like binaural with headphones.

Set the condition slider a quarter of the way up.

Try it in a DAW. Bypass the reverb and use your favorite reverb. Use your EQ or saturation etc. because that’s how you’d likely end up using it in real life, not through the standalone Pianoteq app necessarily.

Try limiting the velocity response to cut the highest MIDI values - some complain about harshness at the highest registers with some models.

Ensure your controller is properly calibrated.

Also this guy has tons of MIDI files to feed it:

http://www.piano-midi.de/

Last edited by dikrek (21-12-2023 13:14)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

Personally I like and have all of the modern pianos models. I appreciate the two Petrof models equally.
Hence nevermind the quality, feel the width!

I agree with all Dikrek's other suggestions wholeheartedly though. Even that suggestion has merit, YMMV as they say!

Reply by BigSteve

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

Since you will be playing it ....pick what sounds good to you.

Reply by ryguy76

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

I think I’ve settled in on the Steingraeber and the Bechstein.  I find I can continue to use those 2 no matter what I play on them but while I like other models too, certain pieces make me want to change the model.

So being that I quite like the timbre of both those models and I don’t find myself wanting to switch as the musical content changes, I feel those are the right ones to choose.

Cheers!

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:

I think I’ve settled in on the Steingraeber and the Bechstein.  I find I can continue to use those 2 no matter what I play on them but while I like other models too, certain pieces make me want to change the model.

So being that I quite like the timbre of both those models and I don’t find myself wanting to switch as the musical content changes, I feel those are the right ones to choose.

Cheers!

Nice. Just make sure you try the “warm” versions of others before choosing, the presets can make a huge difference.

The “sweet” Bechstein is one of the most majestic in the collection. But you picked that anyway (if I was picking again I think I’d have replaced the Steinway D with that).

Petrof Mistral warm is also nice.

Last edited by dikrek (23-12-2023 12:22)

Reply by barlowstraker

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Either of your suggestions will be fine. The Petrof pack having two great models is a safer bet perhaps?

Mainly you should listen and decide for yourself. My current favourite can change on a daily basis!

The different platform versions should sound absolutely identical sonically.

The Steinway D and Petrof packs both contain two piano models.
The free kivir pack contains several more lovely models. The CP80 sounds lovely on some Pop and rock - though the kind of effects that we can use to make it sound great on a lot of material also work well on the traditional acoustic piano models.

D is by a long stretch the king of the concert hall, it's not even close, they absolutely dominate the classical world.
On the other hand the B model has a more gentle sound for regular practice..
The problem is they all sound excellent -Steingraeber, Petrof neither would be a mistake. I like the K and Grotrian too.  I probably particularly liked the Bluthner back when it was Pianoteq version 5 as it sounded more resonant than the other models at the time.  The way they've all been upgraded through improvements to the program now it's just another good piano model in the list.

No one can decide for you. Take your time.

Do you have any wisdom on how to best assess each model?  I’ve been trying to compare like for like by using presets that share the same name, eg Prelude presets, but then will compare the basic presets which are just the models name without any “adjectives” in the preset name.

I guess the other way of going about it for a Stage purchase would be to count the useable presets a pack provides you and not just a specific favourite preset in a pack.

True Pianos had a clear winner in their software, but all of the Pianoteq models are winners so it’s indeed no easy feat to pick 2, lol.

And last question…. Are there any digital pianos (thinking Roland or similar) that have close to comparable built in grand pianos tones that wouldn’t feel like a sonic downgrade if I decide to upgrade this Casio down the line?

Korg D1 is fantastic. Cheaper alternative would be Korg Liano. If you want a fully weighted feel go with the D1. The Liano is not talked about much but is really a deal for the price. I have both and would not sell them...They are keepers.

Reply by ryguy76

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

dikrek wrote:

Nice. Just make sure you try the “warm” versions of others before choosing, the presets can make a huge difference.

The “sweet” Bechstein is one of the most majestic in the collection. But you picked that anyway (if I was picking again I think I’d have replaced the Steinway D with that).

Petrof Mistral warm is also nice.

The collection of Warm presets have been my primary go-to’s when assessing. The Bechstein “Sweet” is definitely majestic and what ultimately sold me on that model.  The lower end is exceptionally majestic!

I didn’t spend much time with the Yamaha but it came out of nowhere on the day I settled on Bechstein in my #2 slot and it gave me something to really think about before I picked Bechstein.  It lacked that “something special” the Bechstein had, but was a solid performer that sounds really good.

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

ryguy76 wrote:
dikrek wrote:

Nice. Just make sure you try the “warm” versions of others before choosing, the presets can make a huge difference.

The “sweet” Bechstein is one of the most majestic in the collection. But you picked that anyway (if I was picking again I think I’d have replaced the Steinway D with that).

Petrof Mistral warm is also nice.

The collection of Warm presets have been my primary go-to’s when assessing. The Bechstein “Sweet” is definitely majestic and what ultimately sold me on that model.  The lower end is exceptionally majestic!

I didn’t spend much time with the Yamaha but it came out of nowhere on the day I settled on Bechstein in my #2 slot and it gave me something to really think about before I picked Bechstein.  It lacked that “something special” the Bechstein had, but was a solid performer that sounds really good.

Check this for some Bechstein tweaks -
I think he made it sound even better:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGOl7P73...e=emb_logo

And some really creative work here:

https://vi-control.net/community/thread...st-5429956

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

dikrek wrote:

Check this for some Bechstein tweaks -
I think he made it sound even better:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGOl7P73...e=emb_logo

And some really creative work here:

https://vi-control.net/community/thread...st-5429956

That Bechstein was gorgeous, as was the playing! It took me a minute to realize I started that thread on VI Control, ha. Thanks for sharing it!

YouTube

miiindbullets's Website

Reply by dikrek

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

miiindbullets wrote:
dikrek wrote:

Check this for some Bechstein tweaks -
I think he made it sound even better:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGOl7P73...e=emb_logo

And some really creative work here:

https://vi-control.net/community/thread...st-5429956

That Bechstein was gorgeous, as was the playing! It took me a minute to realize I started that thread on VI Control, ha. Thanks for sharing it!

And here I’ve shared 4 examples (starting towards the end of page 2) with my processing of the Steinway D and Blüthner.

https://gearspace.com/board/music-compu...st16833118

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: Piano newb seeking guidance

dikrek wrote:

And here I’ve shared 4 examples (starting towards the end of page 2) with my processing of the Steinway D and Blüthner.

https://gearspace.com/board/music-compu...st16833118

Really nice. I like that Steinway D a lot, thanks for sharing those!

YouTube

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