Topic by BlueFish42

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Topic: inexpensive low latency sound cards

May I please have suggestions for a cheap low-latency sound card? (Maybe "audio interface" is a better term.)   Very low latency is important.  I am thinking something like "Focusrite Scarlett Solo 4th Gen USB Audio Interface" for $140, but maybe that is overkill, and I can get lowest latency with something simpler and cheaper. My use case is very simple, just playing my digital piano through my computer and pianoteq.

Last edited by BlueFish42 (15-11-2023 19:10)

Reply by dazric

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

I dare say you're right, I'm sure you can get something decent below that price point, but I haven't researched the current market to know what's worth having. FWIW I've had an Audient iD4 for a number of years and I'm really happy with it.

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

Strictly speaking, latency will be lowest on something like an RME Babyface, but those are spendy, and I don't think I would personally be able to notice the difference. I've never perceived any latency with my Focusrite Scarlett 3rd gen unless I crank the buffer over 256 samples. I imagine the 4th gen is just as good or better.

I originally had a PreSonus AudioBox 96K and it was fine also (no perceptible latency at 256 samples), but I needed more inputs so I picked up a used Scarlett 8i6 and am really happy with it.

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Reply by BlueFish42

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

I notice the Scarlett box has midi inputs and line inputs, and a USB to connect to the computer.  My digital piano has only USB output, no midi or line output.  What is the preferred, lowest latency way to connect the three things together?  The simplest thing is to connect both the keyboard and the box to the computer via separate usb ports.  Or does it make sense to find an adapter to connect the piano to the box directly?  There are usb to midi adapters.

Reply by joannchr

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

BlueFish42 wrote:

I notice the Scarlett box has midi inputs and line inputs, and a USB to connect to the computer.  My digital piano has only USB output, no midi or line output.  What is the preferred, lowest latency way to connect the three things together?  The simplest thing is to connect both the keyboard and the box to the computer via separate usb ports.  Or does it make sense to find an adapter to connect the piano to the box directly?  There are usb to midi adapters.

midi data  from keyboard   must be processed by Pianoteq on the computer , so the lowest latency for midi data transport  is to have no hops between the keyboard and the computer, so connect them directly . There is no point sending the midi to the scarlet as this data has to be sent back to the computer so Pianoteq can process it, so there would a slight additional latency if you do that ( negligible though) .   The best option is to connect the keyboard on one USB port on the computer and to connect another USB port of the computer to the scarlet to act as an audio interface.

Reply by BlueFish42

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

joannchr wrote:
BlueFish42 wrote:

I notice the Scarlett box has midi inputs and line inputs, and a USB to connect to the computer.  My digital piano has only USB output, no midi or line output.  What is the preferred, lowest latency way to connect the three things together?  The simplest thing is to connect both the keyboard and the box to the computer via separate usb ports.  Or does it make sense to find an adapter to connect the piano to the box directly?  There are usb to midi adapters.

midi data  from keyboard   must be processed by Pianoteq on the computer , so the lowest latency for midi data transport  is to have no hops between the keyboard and the computer, so connect them directly . There is no point sending the midi to the scarlet as this data has to be sent back to the computer so Pianoteq can process it, so there would a slight additional latency if you do that ( negligible though) .   The best option is to connect the keyboard on one USB port on the computer and to connect another USB port of the computer to the scarlet to act as an audio interface.

Thank you, that helps!

Reply by johanibraaten

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

joannchr wrote:
BlueFish42 wrote:

I notice the Scarlett box has midi inputs and line inputs, and a USB to connect to the computer.  My digital piano has only USB output, no midi or line output.  What is the preferred, lowest latency way to connect the three things together?  The simplest thing is to connect both the keyboard and the box to the computer via separate usb ports.  Or does it make sense to find an adapter to connect the piano to the box directly?  There are usb to midi adapters.

midi data  from keyboard   must be processed by Pianoteq on the computer , so the lowest latency for midi data transport  is to have no hops between the keyboard and the computer, so connect them directly . There is no point sending the midi to the scarlet as this data has to be sent back to the computer so Pianoteq can process it, so there would a slight additional latency if you do that ( negligible though) .   The best option is to connect the keyboard on one USB port on the computer and to connect another USB port of the computer to the scarlet to act as an audio interface.

Some time ago someone here at the forum made a quite ambitious measurement where he/she compared MIDI latency between 1. USB-MIDI, 2. DIN-USB adapter and 3. MIDI through external audio interface. The result was that there is very little difference in performance between the three options but with a slight edge to the external audio interface having the least amount of latency. But the difference was so small so it doesn’t really have any practical meaning. I couldn’t find that thread now but it is here somewhere.

Reply by joannchr

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

johanibraaten wrote:
joannchr wrote:
BlueFish42 wrote:

I notice the Scarlett box has midi inputs and line inputs, and a USB to connect to the computer.  My digital piano has only USB output, no midi or line output.  What is the preferred, lowest latency way to connect the three things together?  The simplest thing is to connect both the keyboard and the box to the computer via separate usb ports.  Or does it make sense to find an adapter to connect the piano to the box directly?  There are usb to midi adapters.

midi data  from keyboard   must be processed by Pianoteq on the computer , so the lowest latency for midi data transport  is to have no hops between the keyboard and the computer, so connect them directly . There is no point sending the midi to the scarlet as this data has to be sent back to the computer so Pianoteq can process it, so there would a slight additional latency if you do that ( negligible though) .   The best option is to connect the keyboard on one USB port on the computer and to connect another USB port of the computer to the scarlet to act as an audio interface.

Some time ago someone here at the forum made a quite ambitious measurement where he/she compared MIDI latency between 1. USB-MIDI, 2. DIN-USB adapter and 3. MIDI through external audio interface. The result was that there is very little difference in performance between the three options but with a slight edge to the external audio interface having the least amount of latency. But the difference was so small so it doesn’t really have any practical meaning. I couldn’t find that thread now but it is here somewhere.

Yes I think I remember reading a similar post , but that left me perplex , given it is not native DIN - USB, so the midi data follows the following path :   (1) USB out piano - > (2) Conversion to DIN - Scarlet -> (3) USB computer  and I am struggling to understand why it would faster than  (1) USB out piano -> (2) USB Computer in normal situation.  Maybe I am missing something and there is a slight advantage in transport with abnormally long cables between the piano and the combo  scarlet/computer .  I would understand it slighly better is there was a native DIN Out on the piano, but apparently this is not the case in this particular setup as the piano has only USB out. In all cases I agree with you that the difference in latency is absolutely infinitesimal here.

Last edited by joannchr (16-11-2023 09:36)

Reply by johanibraaten

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

joannchr wrote:
johanibraaten wrote:
joannchr wrote:

midi data  from keyboard   must be processed by Pianoteq on the computer , so the lowest latency for midi data transport  is to have no hops between the keyboard and the computer, so connect them directly . There is no point sending the midi to the scarlet as this data has to be sent back to the computer so Pianoteq can process it, so there would a slight additional latency if you do that ( negligible though) .   The best option is to connect the keyboard on one USB port on the computer and to connect another USB port of the computer to the scarlet to act as an audio interface.

Some time ago someone here at the forum made a quite ambitious measurement where he/she compared MIDI latency between 1. USB-MIDI, 2. DIN-USB adapter and 3. MIDI through external audio interface. The result was that there is very little difference in performance between the three options but with a slight edge to the external audio interface having the least amount of latency. But the difference was so small so it doesn’t really have any practical meaning. I couldn’t find that thread now but it is here somewhere.

I would understand it slighly better is there was a native DIN Out on the piano, but apparently this is not the case in this particular setup as the piano has only USB out.

Ah, now I see what you mean. If the piano only have USB-MIDI the most reasonable thing to do is probably to plug it straight in to the computer. The measurement I mentioned was with a native DIN-connection from the piano to a DIN-connection on the audio interface ( I think...).

Reply by Mal

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

When I started reducing latency in my system, I first measured the latency from key press to sound at the speaker. It was in the 50 ms - 140 ms range. I bought a MOTU M2 audio interface for $199 and connected it directly to the computer (do not use a USB hub). Also, the Roland A-88 MKII keyboard connects directly to the computer via USB. After these changes the latency dropped to about 5 ms - 10 ms at 48000 Hz and 256 buffer. Make sure that the Motu driver is installed, ASIO is selected for the Audio Device Type, and the Device is MOTU M Series.

Last edited by Mal (24-11-2023 22:42)

Reply by gs.kroon@gmail.com

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

Mal wrote:

When I started reducing latency in my system, I first measured the latency from key press to sound at the speaker. It was in the 50 ms - 140 ms range. I bought a MOTU M2 audio interface for $199 and connected it directly to the computer (do not use a USB hub). Also, the Roland A-88 MKII keyboard connects directly to the computer via USB. After these changes the latency dropped to about 5 ms - 10 ms at 48000 Hz and 256 buffer. Make sure that the Motu driver is installed, ASIO is selected for the Audio Device Type, and the Device is MOTU M Series.

Hi everybody. I still use and old Tascam soundcard US-366 (bought some years ago second hand for 50 euros). Has a perfect sound quality with Pianoteq. Has also balanced TRS outputs L+R. Works with a Windows 10 driver (USB 2.0). Pianoteq measures a latency of 0,5 ms with 88.200 HZ sample rate (also internal) and with a very small buffersize of 64 (32 bit depth).  When I switch back to 48000 HZ (for the users of Pianoteq STAGE or STANDARD Pianoteq latency becomes an even unnoticeable  1,3 Ms. So, look for the Tascam US-366 in the second hand apps! Regards, @b  PS: using an old Asus laptop (from 2016) with Windows 10, Intel i7, 12 Gb internal memory and SSD disk.

Last edited by gs.kroon@gmail.com (26-11-2023 12:17)

Reply by Joseph Merrill

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

Your motherboard might do the trick, depends.

Reply by gs.kroon@gmail.com

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

Joseph Merrill wrote:

Your motherboard might do the trick, depends.

I guess you are right Joseph. But, on my other laptop (from 2019) with Intel i3 I have a latency of 1,5 ms with the old Tascam soundcard. Still very good ;-). Regards, @b

Reply by miiindbullets

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

Mal wrote:

connected it directly to the computer (do not use a USB hub)

Did you get latency with a USB hub? I was under the impression that USB hubs don't typically add measurable latency, but could certainly be mistaken.

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Reply by salvadorl

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

miiindbullets wrote:
Mal wrote:

connected it directly to the computer (do not use a USB hub)

Did you get latency with a USB hub? I was under the impression that USB hubs don't typically add measurable latency, but could certainly be mistaken.

USB share a single USB port. If you have a multi-channels audio interface with a low latency setting and midi on the same hub, at some point there is going to be some arbitration needed to decide which one gets first, delaying the "loser". In other words it adds randomness to the flow. On my computer, I even use USB ports that are on separate chips on the motherboard. I could revise that if I had a good USB3 hub but those are like 4 times the price of USB2 hubs.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

dazric wrote:

I dare say you're right, I'm sure you can get something decent below that price point, but I haven't researched the current market to know what's worth having. FWIW I've had an Audient iD4 for a number of years and I'm really happy with it.

I, too, have an Audient iD4 (version 1). I'm thinking of upgrading to Mk2 version, although I'm very happy with v.1.

Mk2 is available from Studiospares (cheapest price) in the United Kingdom. It was £105 over Black Friday week. I'll check and see what it is now and update post...

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

sigasa wrote:
dazric wrote:

I dare say you're right, I'm sure you can get something decent below that price point, but I haven't researched the current market to know what's worth having. FWIW I've had an Audient iD4 for a number of years and I'm really happy with it.

I, too, have an Audient iD4 (version 1). I'm thinking of upgrading to Mk2 version, although I'm very happy with v.1.

Mk2 is available from Studiospares (cheapest price) in the United Kingdom. It was £105 over Black Friday week. I'll check and see what it is now and update post...

It's still on offer at £104.50

Warmest regards,

Chris

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

salvadorl wrote:

USB share a single USB port. If you have a multi-channels audio interface with a low latency setting and midi on the same hub, at some point there is going to be some arbitration needed to decide which one gets first, delaying the "loser". In other words it adds randomness to the flow. On my computer, I even use USB ports that are on separate chips on the motherboard. I could revise that if I had a good USB3 hub but those are like 4 times the price of USB2 hubs.

Yeah, but isn't that randomness in the nano/micro-second range? I agree with you on the theoretical latency, but was trying to get an idea of how perceptible it was, if at all. Mostly curious if anyone has measured the latency of a USB hub and isolated that latency to the hub itself.

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Reply by sharpnine

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

salvadorl wrote:

I could revise that if I had a good USB3 hub but those are like 4 times the price of USB2 hubs.

I've been using these USB 3 hubs, which cost < $20 US. I wouldn't go mess with USB2.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083XTKV8V

FWIW I've been using these (USB 3) hubs for all kinds of music scenarios, live gigs, rehearsals, recording. The powered hub lets me power the keyboard, the audio interface, and any other devices which need USB power. I've never noticed that the hub introduced any latency or issues compared to without the hub.

Reply by salvadorl

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

miiindbullets wrote:
salvadorl wrote:

USB share a single USB port. If you have a multi-channels audio interface with a low latency setting and midi on the same hub, at some point there is going to be some arbitration needed to decide which one gets first, delaying the "loser". In other words it adds randomness to the flow. On my computer, I even use USB ports that are on separate chips on the motherboard. I could revise that if I had a good USB3 hub but those are like 4 times the price of USB2 hubs.

Yeah, but isn't that randomness in the nano/micro-second range? I agree with you on the theoretical latency, but was trying to get an idea of how perceptible it was, if at all. Mostly curious if anyone has measured the latency of a USB hub and isolated that latency to the hub itself.

It would be interesting to measure the latency. I guess it's related to the number and types of peripherals. But as SharpNine mentionned later in this thread, I would definitely choose a USB3 hub which is significantly faster and has, if I remember well, a better arbitration protocol.

Reply by salvadorl

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Re: inexpensive low latency sound cards

sharpnine wrote:
salvadorl wrote:

I could revise that if I had a good USB3 hub but those are like 4 times the price of USB2 hubs.

I've been using these USB 3 hubs, which cost < $20 US. I wouldn't go mess with USB2.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083XTKV8V

FWIW I've been using these (USB 3) hubs for all kinds of music scenarios, live gigs, rehearsals, recording. The powered hub lets me power the keyboard, the audio interface, and any other devices which need USB power. I've never noticed that the hub introduced any latency or issues compared to without the hub.

Thanks for confirming what I suspected would be the case. USB3 is not only faster but technically better on many aspects. Unfortunately the US prices have not hit here in Brasil and USB3 hubs are still not cheap compared to USB2 ones. I had to buy my Scarlett 2i2 interface when I visited in the US: taking currency conversion into account, its retail price in Brasil was 4.5 times that in the US...